The net effect of card combat on me and how YOU THE PLAYER can start a REVOLUTION

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Prince Guni, Jul 26, 2014.

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Do you like random cards?

  1. Keep those random cards coming!

    95 vote(s)
    67.9%
  2. I don't like random/chance/clicking but want to focus on my tactics instead! Fixed cards please!

    45 vote(s)
    32.1%
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  1. Prince Guni

    Prince Guni Avatar

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    For me it is the wrong player skill. I would like combat to be about tactics and choosing the right skills, not about how to click things fast to somehow get as many random skills cast off as possible.
     
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  2. Lord Artia

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    But thats the skills that we are talking about. The best people will cast off skill combos with the random selection of cards that were built by them, so they know what cards they have and how many of each. The unskilled player will click wildly. So if both players match up with the same deck and same gear, player A will win due to casting the right spell at the right time. Plus you still have the global cooldown timer so you cannot spam click and cast super fast. I actually noticed the faster you click the less skills you actually get in.

    I said the same thing on the first page in response to your comment. I don't think you or me repeating the same things over and over again will change the fact that the card system is here to stay, so if you don't like it try to help improve it vs trying to get rid of it after it being playable by us for 4 days...
     
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  3. Vendetta Beretta

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    For me I found that I knew which skills I wanted to use. I stacked my deck with the skills I knew I wanted to use in combat. When combat came I always had the skill I needed and wanted to use. It wasn't just OH let me see what "random" skill I want to use today. These were skills I chose in advance.

    Also I usually had more than one copy of that skill I wanted to use, which is by far better than clicking a random skill and waiting for a timer/cooldown.

    So I really think you are approaching this with the wrong state of mind. You are still thinking this is some random deck. I thought the way you did before I tried the system, but after trying the system, I realized I was wrong, and it really does work quite nicely.
     
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  4. Carlin the Druid Archer

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    Haha, yes, that made me laugh out loud... firstly everyone was complaining that it was too random and no skill, now we have people complaining there's too much skill involved :)
     
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  5. Prince Guni

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    Well, it is the wrong "skill" involved, and often times no skill at all, as ping times tend to be a major factor in "player reaction" when things become too fast. If you win because you have a lower latency or are in possession of some gaming device that allows you to remap those awkward slug keys that has nothing to do with skill.

    A lot of us international players are actually playing MMORPGs because they tend to be far more forgiving when you have a lag spike or slow ping compared to action shooters. But the direction this has been going with that card system and also stuff like LOS and combat damage based on avatar position and so on is all the way towards real time action and fast reactions. Tell me, how I can ever achieve a "faster reaction" than you if my normal ping round trip (not even considering lag spikes) is already 500ms (250ms each way)? Well, of course if the intention is to make SotA (at least the competitive part of it) a game just for Americans and a few Europeans lucky to be near a transatlantic node that is cool. This problem has been almost entirely solved the way combat systems work in games like Lotro and Rift, even for PvP. The solution is a fixed skill bar with timers, an action queue and no emphasis on exact manual targeting (LOS, position and such) or an action bar / deck that is changing so fast that you can hardly have a properly stuffed action queue.
     
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  6. wmidgard

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    correct me if im wrong please. ( please let me be wrong )
    but i see one major drawback so far and that is that you cant switch between the 2 systems once it gous live.
    -i thought there woud be a panalty or something on removing and reaplying skillpoints
    this is just the bare bones cardsytem so far but:
    i see myself using it for possibly pvp matches or some special fights ( the random card draw ).
    but i woud like to use a fixt skilbar for wen im just pvm grinding.
    ( i really dont see myself constantlie checking my skillbar for which card is where if i am spending 2h-3h just camping a monster spawn for xp/loot)
     
  7. docdoom77

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    Someone recently said (Chris?) that the current thinking is that removing a skill will be free and easy, but reapplying that skill point will require a trainer and possibly gold spent.

    So, no issues there.

    @Lord Artia: Edited to focus on what I was responding too. ;)
     
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  8. Lord Artia

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    He may be talking about switching decks on the fly or inside of combat. Its true we didnt really touch on that in R8 due to the limited skill points, however I don't think it will be an issue. If you change your deck inside of combat even if there is no focus loss, which im sure there will be like a 20% loss, you would still have to repopulate your hand while your opponent has a full hand still leaving you at a disadvantage.

    I totally understand what you are trying to say Guni, however you cannot ask that a system in the game be changed due to people having a worse internet connection or reaction speeds than others and the same goes for gaming mice. If there is a way to break it the player always will, gaming mouse or not. However doing the deck system also prevents a lot of botters and macroers so that is a huge plus there to get gold sellers or bots off the streets, even if its 25% of them we lose.
     
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  9. wmidgard

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    accualy that was my issue.
    if i want to just grind whith a locked skilbarr i have to put my points into the locked slots.
    if i want to switch to cardsystem i have to remove those points and put them in othere skils in the focus tree ( fade out timer/faster cards and such ).

    im not against the whole carddraw system and it coud be fun ( once it finichd wat we see so far is just a skeleton build ).
    but if im just hunting rabbits for like 2-3h for thyr meat/fur i woud like to do it whith a fixed skilbar and just go key 1-2-3-TABB-loot all and not check my skilbar every combat to see where thy put the weapon skils this time ( dont want to waste the reagent for a fireball if i can just clobber it to death whith my staff).
    and on the other hand i woud like to use the whole random card thing wen im in a hard fight or sudden pvp ambush whitout having to vizit a trainer.
     
  10. Logain

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    And here you are contradicting yourself. There's only two possible options. Either a static, fixed bar allows for skilled players (skilled as in tactical useage) to come out on top of the crowed. If that is the case and there is such skill involved, you would not want to balance the average of the one system against the top of the other, but you'd balance the average of one against the average of the other to stay fair. Or, if there is no skill involved on the static, fixed bar, then you'd be right, there's no way to balance it, but you'd be wrong about tactics involved. You've got to decide for one.

    Edit:
    No, you don't. You simply select 'use only locked cards' and you are instantly ready to rumble. No further points on any focus branch required. The 'locked slots' you gain from the focus branch are only if you want to build a hybrid deck (some locked cards, some randoms, e.g. a Healer might decide to always have Resurrection at the ready and locks that, but leaves the rest random).
     
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  11. baronandy

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    in my opinion what is important that different spells have different range so the lower hitting spells have much longer range .

    so you cant hit someone with the hardest dmg spell far away

    and spells should fizzle if someone is out of range . so mages have to recast if they are not experianced and know every range of every spell well.

    instead reactional card picking like twisted fate in league of legends
     
  12. Vendetta Beretta

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    some how I don't think having a static bar or a deck full of glyphs would make much difference in the case of lag. The glyphs seem to be queued to come up at regular intervals based on your focus skill points. Glyphs also stay up for a long time (if you speced it out correctly). maybe you need more exposure to this system. There seems to always be a strong counter argument to every thing you are bringing up. Ultimately, I think you might want to learn the deck system if you want to play SotA.
     
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  13. Trenyc

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    It doesn't actually matter if cards are sent one by one over the internet or generated on your machine because the only advantage of using dealt decks is combos, which requires pinging the server to execute (or should require, unless Port wants to see "deck hacks" on day 1). And anyway, once you're dealt a card, your machine still has to communicate with the server when you use that card. Guni's concern is that during the lag time between when he pushes a button and the server receives that message, his opponent might have moved from his or her current position or otherwise reacted, which will affect things like LoS and targeting / missile trajectory. This combat system will be a rough ride for people with high ping, as combat systems that feature reactionary elements often are.
     
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  14. Lord Spaz

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    I didnt notice that so much maybe once the server becomes filled it will be a problem, and my connection SUCKS Im in europe so pretty far from the server and also the connection I use is really shitty I watch streams on lowest quality and it still lags just to give you an example. Unless I hit a lag spike it seemed fine most days, yes sometimes I had to buttona mash a card because it wouldnt activate probably due to lag but If I remember correctly it wasnt on a regular base. Anyway I didnt feel handicapped because of my connection.
     
  15. wmidgard

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    ok thank you.
    then i have no problem whith it.
    so i can just go around whith a lockt bar for easy grinding deer/bunnys or some other low risk criters .
    and if i get ambushd or find myself sudenly in a hard fight i can switch to deck system.
    (whith a smal penalty becous the cards will have to load and the PKer alreaddy has a full bar of spels readdy to go off)
     
  16. Vendetta Beretta

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    That holds true even if it was a static icon. I don't see how this argument has anything to do with the deck system at all. It appears Prince is trying to come up with any reason he can to make the deck system look bad, but now he is just reaching out into thin air.

    Also if you set up your focus right you shouldn't be having an issue with cards popping up and down so fast that you have to make stressful last second decisions causing you to delay and adding to the lag. Even if that were the case the other person would be using the same system. So there is no disadvantage to using the deck system as far as lag is concerned. I don't see the point of this argument about the deck system and lag at all.
     
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  17. jiirc

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    Wmidgard, what is your real goal there. If you are are simply shifting skills around, multiple decks accomplish your goals. if you've put skills into both locked glyphs and random chosen glyphs, you can create a deck for pave and one for pvp the way you described. If you want to have two different skill sets, one that lets you have locked glyphs but not any skills in random and vice versa, then the system isn't designed that way and in my opinion shouldn't allow that kind of manipulation.
     
  18. Trenyc

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    Since randomly dealt cards allow you to trigger combos, the server needs to verify every single card that's loaded into your bar somehow. Otherwise a hack could be devised to constantly place whatever skill you want in any slot you want, giving you infinite combos of whatever kind you want.
     
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  19. wmidgard

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    i was not aware i coud just select "use only locked cards" whitout having to spend points in the focus tree .
    i want to use locked cards for easy grinding like rabbits or dear or some other low risk mob to me.
    just go 1-2-3-TABB-loot all for a couple of hours to stock up on skins/meat or other crafting gear.
    (cant see myself checking the skillbar every combat to make sure i dont waste reagents of a fireball wen i kill a rabbit)
    but wen i get ambushd by a PKer i can just select "deck 1" and be readdy for a fight .
    (whith the smal penalty of my cards that have to load while the PKer has a full bar loaded alreaddy )

    ps: wen you use the "use only lockd cards" can you still do those trigger combos ?
     
  20. jiirc

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    If I undstand correctly, combos are only going to be available if you have at least some random slots. If you use a fully locked deck, you won't be able to get or use combos. My question, as I write this answer, is should you be able to still get combos to pop up if you a full random deck only. Or should you get combos for those glyphs that are dealt randomly, letting you have both some locked glyphs, some random glyphs, and combos based on random glyphs.
     
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