SPO and SP Offline

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rune_74, Aug 6, 2014.

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  1. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

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    My hope is that we don't derail this thread. PM can be a useful tool in that regard.

    Every time they put an NPC, quest, dialogue and location in a release, part of the story is coming into focus. You can't avoid pre-release under this model unless Owl's Head is a totally fake spot, the conversations currently are bogus, and the quests are just placeholders. I guess the real question is not if they release the story, they already are in small ways. The question maybe is better asked how much and how fast. And I would never advocate releasing the whole shabang or anything that's not set. Nothing has been said in a long time on what is being developed, has been developed or is still in progress. My question perhaps is better stated that there should be more attention to it now as per the original post. Again, this is my opinion that the story elements should have more focus now.

    Those to me are sandbox MMO tools for player driven content. (This thread is about single player elements.) Story tools in single player are what I would like to see as I said in my response to FireLotus.... "If there is work being done behind the scenes, why not showcase it? Engage the community with it in a new way. Stephen's shows have been great. Other parts of the dev team could talk about how they are crafting story, creating NPC's, developing schedules... etc. " To me tools being used for these things would be story tools. They did do a show once a while back on their dialogue tool. I enjoyed that. But it was only during the discussion about scripted or open conversation models.

    More suggestions were in my original post. I am trying to be productive.
     
  2. Ristra

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    This subject is very much on topic IMO.

    So far there is no NPC that I am aware of that has anything to do with the story. Maybe that Guard Michaels is part of the story but I can tell ya, Lum has hours and hours of testing with that guy.

    What is the difference between GM driven content and player driven content? Can the same tools be used? Should the same tools be used?

    We know the story is not static and hard coded by the devs. If that was the case, we would have everything at launch and timers/triggers would be used to trickle the story out to us over then course of the episode.

    Testing story building tools for the players is testing the story building tools for the GMs.
     
  3. Akrondar

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    When this game was announced, RG was interested into make the game so it could be played single player and/or multi player if you wished with a rich history. He recruited a top story teller (Tracy) to help making the background history and even they wrote a book for it!. Will they be capable to achieve making a game with a rich history that can be played single and multi player?. I am confident that Richard can and has the grand scheme about how to get the miracle done. Why wouldn't i believe that? Only because he doesn't told us how they will achieve it yet? There isn't another reasonable reasons to don't show the details about the systems that will sustain the adventure mode yet?

    Anyways i think that on this thread there is a lot of anxiety, and even if it is a good thing at a certain degree we shouldn't overdo it. Lets make constructive suggestions about how the system actually showed could get better, like this thread by Lord_Darkmoon, even recently replied by RG himself.
     
  4. rune_74

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    I made this thread to get attention to an area that I think has been pushed to the sidelines.

    I have stated over and over that I'm not looking for story, I'm looking for the systems that will support that style of play.

    A lot of detractors don't really make a lot of sense in this thread, I mean they have said NO to full loot, but has that stopped anyone from still trying to get that?

    I'm not in panic mode or anything like that...I was hoping to get a rational discussion going, but it seems it is getting sidetracked and quite honestly telling people to shhh just wait it will eventually come is not productive.

    We currently can't make constructive suggestions about Companions for instance, because there is no information for if they are still even in the game!

    Like I previously stated there is a lot I like, but if you don't bring up concerns they won't get addressed. Before the usuals jump all over that, I know not every concern will get addressed and don't expect them all to be.
     
  5. Wagram

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    I expect the SP RPG will be similar to the LOTRO Book quests and most will just be solo encounter instances, the story may begin in town but you will just following clues to on solo instance quest line that will be run in Offline & MMO modes.
     
  6. Ned888

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    If everything is a combat challenge (DPS check) and there is no way to complete missions through subterfuge and guile... If there is no replayability other than PVP and crafting... If there is no valid continuation of the game (after the main plot) in the single player mode then I'd have to call this game a disappointment if not an outright fail.

    The devil will be in the small details of the stealth system, respawning mechanisms, AI for mobs and various other things that make this a living world and an adventure.

    Without systems in place for a single player to continue on alone this will definitely not be the ultimate RPG. It might be okay for 40-50 hours, but ultimate?
     
  7. Vyrin

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    If you are referring to the main storyline perhaps. I consider story to be all the ins and outs - no matter how central characters are to what's going on. It may be small but Guard Michael reveals something about "outlanders" and how they're perceived. It begs all sorts of questions that have everything to do with story. There are hints and pieces from other NPC's.

    And your statement is precisely the point, if no one on the isle has anything to do with the story, it's just there for the MMO as an alternate locale. I hope they have something to do with the story, whether that's in there now or not.
     
  8. AndiZ275

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    This would be horrible and a reason never to play this game offline, since I hated the quest and story system in Lotro, which was more linear than a one way street. It would mean playing a MMO offline and please show me one MMO, that was fun to play alone over a longer time (in my larger post at the beginning of this thread I pointed out, what a single player RPG is about and what makes it different to a MMO). I can't expect SotA to become something like that...

    And +1 to Rune: I don't like how this thread was sidetracked by the Story element, since only hardcore Sandbox games have no story at all.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    As a suggestion: For one of the future releases (maybe 11 or so) I'd like to see one bigger test quest, which doesn't have to do anything with the story (so no spoilers). For example a quest like I explained in my post on the first page: Getting an item out of a fortified bandit camp (a simple premise, but hard to achieve). This way we could test different approaches to get this item in an truly RPG fashion (talk to the guards (bribe them, threaten them, seduce them, get friends with them...), dress as a bandit, find some hidden entrance, fight through the enemy hordes, sneak into the camp and open the gate from inside, try to get over the walls with some kind of rope; etc.). This would definitely set this game apart from typical MMOs, where's usually only one way to solve quests (kill the enemies, collect stuff, etc.). And it would be nice to test such a quest in a single and multiplayer environment (especially when players are trying to get the same item). As an additional incentive for the multiplayer mode: Don't let the item respawn, so players have to either get it together and solve the quest through grouping or compete against each other over the item (obviously they'd have to start at the same time and nobody should get an advantage, who have succeeded in such a quest before)... And maybe add a hardcore mode, where you can only try this quest once and if you fail, you can't do it again...

    Edit says: And before someone starts again, quests with multiple solutions were indeed promised in Kickstarter (for example when the awesome concept art of the fortress with the troll was presented (with the drawing bridge and the sewer gate))
     
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  9. High Baron Asguard

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    Great idea though I am not sure about the hardcore mode as one of the best things about a good single player game is trying different things until one works. Everything is a puzzle to be solved
     
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  10. Lord_Darkmoon

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    SotA was meant to be a game that can be enjoyed by playing it as an MMORPG or by playing it as a single player RPG.
    Richard and Tracy are hard at work on the story and I am confident that the story will be great. But I fear that there are too many compromises being made to focus this game on the MMO-part.

    - We have a housing system which could have an impact on the atmosphere by having too many diverse house-styles in a city destroying the style of the city itself. Decorations with many thrones of bone can destroy the atmosphere etc. But this is a compromise those of us who would like to play in SPO mode have to accept as housing is a badly wanted feature in an MMO.

    - We have auto-attacks instead of an active combat system as this is what most MMORPG-fans expect. But a more active system would make for a more exciting combat system. Another compromise.

    - We have a magic system that allows for learning spells very quickly and casting spells like shooting from a gun. Instead of including magic into an interesting story and quests in which you have to find new spells in ancient ruins and magic becoming something rare and very powerful. Magic in SotA is just a form of an attack, in order to have fast PvP battles. This is a compromise story- and SP-fans have to accept, too.

    - We have a world that could be too large for it to be overly detailed. This is a compromise in order to have many players in the world and to be able to make room for many lots in the housing system.

    - Also it was said that too much foliage in areas would create the problem that players could hide. So we have a compromise in favor of an MMO-aspect and against a more detailed world.

    - We probably won't get complex companions as this could have an impact on the MMO-part and PvP.

    - There probably won't be choices with permanent consequences on the world and its inhabitants as this does not work in an MMO.

    - We cannot have a full backstory and personality for every NPC as there are too many NPCs in the world in order to make the world feel crowded - which is due to the fact that the world is extremely large.

    - Right now the dialogue system is a MMO-chat and not a real conversation system.

    - Respawning could also become a compromise we have to accept as well as repeatable quests - I don't hink there has been a final word on this yet.

    - There could be areas off limit for SP-fans (PvP Areas).

    - I am not sure how it is handled with weapons but what I heard is that there won't be uber-weapons you can find and that player crafted weapons will be the focus. So no Hoe of Destruction or Magebane with a history and a link to the story?

    I really wonder if we will ever see a compromise that has to be done in favor for the SP-mode... This makes me a bit sad as I fear that playing SotA in SP-mode won't be a true SP experience.
     
  11. Owain

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    I guess the development is heading in the direction most desired by most customers. I don't see that as a bad development decision.
     
  12. StaticGrazer

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    I can understand on some points why you might be concerned about the single players being getting the short end of the stick on some issues.

    -Instance terrain.
    -Companions. ( Although I haven't heard much about this aside from animals or summons. )
    -Player homes in (I assume) non player towns. ( Although SP offline won't see online anything if I understand correctly.)
    -Not being able to quest for special abilities and spells. As things are right now, in pre-alpha, this is true. ( But combat is supposed to be fast paste, so...)

    There are some things I don't feel like I understand fully?

    -Respawing as a compromise? Do you want a hardcore mode? Or...?
    -The dialogue system is a MMO-chat and not a real conversation system? Are you referring to more like a Bioware kind of conversation system? I seem to remember UO chat with the NPCs was basically using normal chat.
    -Uber-weapons. They briefly mentioned they were going to make a system for SP (offline) users, because they cannot rely on crafting from other players.

    And there are the things I have things to add to.

    Auto attacks and a passive combat system. Now maybe I don't fully understand "auto attacking", there was an auto attack that happened between using your skills and spells, if that's what you're referring to then I don't really understand how that is a compromise. Especially when what is in place basically demands you to be aware of what you can do and try to plan your next move. I was mostly PVE during R9, and I've played many game types for a long time, but I cannot say that I feel like the combat was, passive.

    I can see that there may not be world altering events, something like Nuking Megaton, but there may be events that alter the NPCs.

    Off limit areas, PvP areas are of course going to be off limits. Who are you going to fight? They've already spoken that rare resources are going to be located in both PvP and PvE areas. So, in theory, there's no need for a SP-offline player to enter those areas anyway.



    I have yet to play a game ( unmodded ) where every single NPC has a fully fleshed out back story. Even a game like Dragon Age has the NPCs who basically tell you to bugger off, and that's their player interaction.
     
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  13. JackW

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    On some things yes, but judging from the forums there seem to be a lot more customers against the deck system than for it.
     
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  14. Sir_Hemlock

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    Hi Lord_Darkmoon, I know the feeling.

    Many of us literally poured 6 pints of our own blood into raising awareness for those exact concerns, unsuccessfully.

    Apart from raising these issues there is nothing more we can do about it I'm afraid.

    Regards,
     
  15. High Baron Asguard

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    Think he means single player ONLINE, not single player offline
     
  16. High Baron Asguard

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    there is and I am getting quite close to it sadly
     
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  17. Lord_Darkmoon

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    -Respawning: I fear that even in SPO mode monsters, especially "bosses" will respawn, too. In a SP-RPG you kill the big bad dragon and he stays dead forever. If he respawns what is the point in killing him?

    - Dialogues: I refer to any other dialogue system in an SP-RPG, being it Dragon Age, Risen or Wasteland 2. A real conversation between people and not an IRC chat.

    - Auto attacks: I think a system in which you have to actively attack and in which nothing happens when you do not click would be much more intense. I feel removed from my character when I have to watch him attack and not be able to control every "swing".

    - Off limit areas: I hoped that we would be able to explore everything, even if this means that in an area that normally is meant for PvP there will be nothing special found for PvE players but maybe a monster or a treasure here or there.

    - NPC personalities and backstory: You should play Ultima 7 ;)
     
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  18. docdoom77

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    Let's not forget two big ones that are staples in single player games:

    1) Save/Load system.

    1) Camp/Sleep/Time passing system.

    Can you imagine playing Ultima 7 without sleeping to wait for the right NPC to wake up (or sneak off for a tryst, so you can follow them)?

    Can you imagine Ultima 6 without being able to press the space bar to pass time when needed? Ugh.

    I agree. From here it looks like the SP aspect will be tacked on. But the fact of the matter is that we've brought these concerns up over and over and we have gotten responses from Richard in most of them. That's great. Unfortunately, those responses usually consist of: "we're aware; the story will be great," or "We're focused on other stuff right now."

    Do I fear that it will always be put off until it's too late to do it justice. Certainly. Do I think we're going to make enough of an impact to change that? Not really.

    Whether I like it or not,Owain has a point. We are the minority. The money is in the mulit-player part that I don't care about, so it's always going to be the focus.
     
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  19. Trenyc

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    If you literally poured six pints of your blood into anything, you should probably see a doctor. ;)
     
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  20. docdoom77

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