Consensual pvp???? Stay a While and Listen Why this is no fun.....

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by gonzo9002, Aug 2, 2014.

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  1. Mishri

    Mishri Avatar

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    No, the issue is you have a group, 1 person is full loot, all of the rest aren't (or even if it's a 50/50 split) then the full loot person just loots everyone, or makes sure gets the last shot in, or they make sure the full looters do the most damage by having the other guys being healers. There are tons of ways to exploit it and no good way to prevent it. Any guild that wants to be competitive would utilize whatever minimum number of full looters as possible to full loot as much as possible.
     
  2. Mishri

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    I don't expect it will be so easy to flag/unflag, it's supposed to be a quest to enable open pvp, I expect another quest would be required to disable open pvp, and I wouldn't it to be simple/easy to do either. I'd want it to be about an hour to complete, simply to make the decision one way or the other to be more meaningful and to stop the flip floppers switching it back and forth all the time to gank people and then be immune to pvp so nobody can retaliate.
     
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  3. blaquerogue

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    No, it should fall under the lesser of the two if im full loot and you are partial we both get partial loot, otherwise you have partial loot people taking advantage of the set up (grieving) as most of the PVE complain about! I will not be fair, for either side and extreme grieving will follow on both sides! Ther is no reward for us FUll loot, just for teh partial loot people in that scenario, bad business in the least for Portalarium.
     
  4. Mercyful Fate

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    Assuming 2 groups each containing 1 full looter and the rest minimal looting then only 1 person from each group could be full looted. For those that are not opted for full loot they lose no more than 1 item anyways. Just because you are full-loot doesn't mean you can full-loot someone who is not. I don't see the exploit.
     
  5. blaquerogue

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    the exploit is you can loot me of all my stuff and i can only loot you of 1 or 2 items, to me that is farfetched, it is not even in anyway. you really cant argue with that the exploit would be (kill the full loot guy take all his stuff, but if im killed i only lose a couple things) so theres the trade off! now if you want to put yourself into our category full loot, then so be it, or if you want us to fall into your category partial loot, thats fine too. there wil be others out there that are full loot.
     
  6. Sir Tim

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    I thought this was a good solution: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/suggestion-open-loot-slider.9499/
     
  7. Mishri

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    That still doesn't solve the issue of how you handle group pvp. unless you just turn it down to the lowest in each group, which would be the same whether it was a slider or a open/partial/no loot. Then you'd get people who game the system by having someone outside their group who is 100% full loot dealing most of the damage while others heal him and keep people pinned, so he gets to claim loot and get maximum from each person.
     
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  8. Mishri

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    lets say you have 3 people 1 full loot 2 minimal loot. you attack 4 individuals who are full loot, you can full loot 4 people, but if those individuals beat you, they only get minimal loot 2x and full loot 1 time. It makes groups with 1 full loot much more profitable with minimal risk, especially if you give your full loot guy cheap gear and deck out your minimal loot guys.

    here is a more extreme example, you have 1 full loot guy and 4 minimal loot, your opponents kill the full loot guy because he has basically no gear, but you wipe them out and you resurrect your full loot guy to loot people, atleast 1 full loot per group as long as they had it enabled.

    or, you have 3 full loot guys and 3 min loot guys, the 3 full loot guys are wearing cheap stuff while your min loot guys wear top notch/expensive. I'm not sure what group limits there will be but people will figure out ways to min/max their reward/risk. maybe they'll run 2 groups, one is just pure damage full loot, the other is pure defense/healing protecting damage group, damage group is full loot in cheapest effective gear. defense/healing is best gear minimal loot.

    1 vs 1 I see no issue, the problems start coming up once we go beyond that, even if they aren't grouped people can be working together to make sure they get favorable loot rewards.
     
  9. Sir Tim

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    Based on this link: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/suggestion-open-loot-slider.9499/

    and applying it to group... I guess there are a number of ways you can do this. If other members of his group are alive, he cant be looted till they are dead OR till they leave X radius. Then it's based on who did the most damage. One option.

    Another option might be that there is a loot slider for each group. They all have to agree on a number, and it takes the lowest setting. If you dont like the lowest setting and want it higher... start your own group or kick the player that has the lowest out of the group.

    I guess there are millions of ways to skin this. I'm sure one of them will work the best while not pleasing everyone, but making most people happy.
     
  10. Mercyful Fate

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    No, reread my posts regarding risk scaling concept. If you are set to risk full loot but I am set to risk only 1 item and I kill you then I am only entitled to take 1 item. Risk vs Reward. Conversely, if you kill me you can take at most one item.

    Using a risk scaling concept you can only fully loot those that also risk full loot. Conversely, you cannot be full looted by a player that is not risking full loot.
     
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  11. Mishri

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    I think you'd still end up with one group (or individual) with maximum loot killing or dealing the most damage to people while minimal loot people are healing/defending/distracting other groups to ensure they get maximum loot rewards for the lowest risk. This would be a big tactic with guild organized pvp. You could try to figure out who their "full looter" is by watching damage, but then the best people at it will know exactly how many of each skill to hit someone with to make it difficult to tell who is the guy who will be the max damage dude. (Especially once we lose all the floating numbers). That one guy is flinging fireballs left and right, it must be him.. but alas no, he has no points in increased fire damage, they were weaker than the guy who through half as many.
     
  12. Owain

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    The quest for PvP, as I understand it, is a limited PvP 101 for PvE players. As an individual or as a guild, players can select Open PvP whenever they want, although I would hope that for a player flagged as part of a guild that there would be a simple way to unflag when grouping with unflagged players without leaving the guild. Perhaps when grouping, players are asked to temporarily set or clear flags so group members match.
     
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  13. Mishri

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    No read my post. I get that you risk/get only as much as you put up, the imbalance comes from outside factors, the full looters who risk little but have the backup from minimal looters with the best gear. 1 on 1 it works fine, once you get more than 2 people in one instance you start running into tactics to give them favorable loot advantage.

    If you are in the best gear, manage to kill all 3 people and loot them you get 2 good items and a full loot of cheap stuff. The full looter kills you with the aid of his 2 buddies and they can full loot you, getting 10 good items.
     
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  14. Mercyful Fate

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    Assuming your previous scenario where the full looter does all the damage and he has 2 pocket healers for the rest of his group. However, that scenario, although feasible, may not bear fruit against a group with 2 damage dealers and 1 healer. If the full loot guy has cheap gear he should go down fast regardless ( providing heals don't overpower dps ) or the healers will be targetted first since once they're locked down it's game over.

    Reread my previous post.
     
  15. Mercyful Fate

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    What idjit would stay in a 1 vs 3 fight? ;)

    But that applies to both parties. I'll agree that in that specific scenario the best you can hope for is minimal looting - which we gonna have anyways if we can't come up with something better.
     
  16. Silent Strider

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    The issue with optional looting is how to deal with corner cases and active exploitation of the system.

    1x1 is easy enough. larger battles are also not too hard to consider if the combatants stay constant and no-one tries to exploit the system.

    But what about people specifically trying to game the system? For example, if the looting defaults to the most restrictive option among the combatants, what about a group of PKers with loot set to full, with a friend close by with his loot set to the least possible, just so that friend can jump into the fray (and, thus, set loot to minimal for everyone involved) if the PKers start to lose? There are too many potential exploits which, if not somehow addressed, might make the whole system frustrating for anyone not trying to exploit it.

    Worse, that can even happen by accident. What if a player with loot set to minimum interferes in a fight where both parties wanted full loot?
     
  17. Owain

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    The simplest way to avoid all the corner cases is to use Selective Multiplayer to prevent people with flag mismatches from seeing each other.
     
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  18. blaquerogue

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    ok i am good with that there.
     
  19. blaquerogue

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    This is the problem with so many options! Maybe there are just too many options? I think the full loot pvp, should only see full loot pvp people when adventuring to avoid a conflict that slides to one side only. Best fix for all that is when you start off at character creation screen you pick PVP full loot, and if you dont you can pick no pvp. forget all the options either pvp or not simple as that if you start playing PVP and you die too much you can delete your character and make another with no pvp. It seems the more options given the more problems it causes.
     
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  20. sn0tub

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    this thread has been over complicated.

    Went from why consensual pvp isnt fun to people arguing about hypothetical loot rules and possible grief tactics on a system that doesn't exist and probably wont.

    If anything this thread shows the huge issue of PvP if its not implemented from the start of a games development. You can tell when PvP is a bolt on after thought, or when designed from the start.

    I think we have argued every eventuality 1000 times over, just gotta wait n see what was designed.
     
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