Challenge Dungeon, Combat and AI Feedback (Spoiler Alert)

You've been warned! Spoilers below regarding the Challenge Dungeon!

So I managed to break my personal best record as a lone wolf adventurer in the Challenge Dungeon - I wanted to give some feedback and potentially assistance to other Avatars who might be interested to know. I made it to the giant blue hall with multiple Lich Mages and Lich Archers (it became clear at that point that I could no longer solo the dungeon, it was worse than the Elven armada spawning in a square room).

Here's some feedback and personal opinions for the Devs / everyone on my first 3 days of experience and what I've gathered.

AI and the Beasts

AI is a tough thing to do right, because no matter what - Avatars will always find a way around pre-programmed behaviours (even emergent AI is programmed in some manner).

Melee Units - AI was quite simple, and easy to exploit in a way. They have an aggro range and will attempt to path to you. Once they travelled out of the spawn / max travel range, they will about turn and head back to the spawn point. If they get stuck, they will teleport back to their spawn point - this can be annoying as it will most likely trigger their heal mechanism. In combat, you can merry-go-round them, which allows you to strike them from afar with long range weapons (a halberd for me), in effect, you can take 0 damage with a little effort. The only monsters that were exceptional were the Satyr Fighters, they appear to have a much wider range of attack, and they hit HARD.

Ranged Units - AI is also simple, they follow similar rules to the melee units, but since they have a ranged attack, they'll just pelt you from wherever they are standing. Only a few things have blocked their field of vision and thus required them to move closer / into a clear shot of you - that being large columns and stairs. This makes them a priority target in battles, especially mages since there are few magic resistance options at this point.

Both units will automatically start to flee at 5-10% health, it's very consistent and applies to 'Boss' class creatures like the Lich Mage / Archer. Both units also will aggro if you hit a nearby allied unit (but not always).

I think it would be a vast improvement if you could give AI the ability to jump over small obstacles - this would make it more challenging no doubt, but more fair to the AI. (Picture avatars hiding on tabletops or in the river)

Combat and Other Feedback

I love the glyph system, it's very refreshing and very fun - you can lock some skills and leave others to randomly refresh. Sometimes it deals you a bad hand, but with some planning, these situations were far and few for me.

Combat should be treated as a fluid interaction, not standing still and just dishing out damage in a static manner - I've found circling enemies works very well, only if the AI would do that to me as well (that would up the difficulty for players though). I had a flashback to the old UO days when I was a halberd toting battle mage circling my targets

Damage and other systems (magic) are still very early in development I'm sure - my main peeve was dealing 2 damage on a string of 5 or so hits, minimum damage is probably going to be worked at in the future (I hope and assume).

While going through the dungeon, I felt that:

• Slimes were incredibly annoying - they take forever to kill (because of no min. damage or high base health). Oh and they split on death, not just with physical weapons. I tried to roast one with magic only in a hope that it wouldn't split, but it did.
• Enemy mages were very dangerous - unlimited fireballs, high damage (when we get more damage mitigating skills later, this should be fine).
• Spider growl - I love the spider artwork, it's very apt. If they made clicking noises or scuttles, that would be awesome (I'm also assuming this will be improved later). I get a chuckle whenever they growl.
• Dungeon Lighting - spot on with the darkness levels, not just in Challenge Dungeon, but other areas. I'm forced to use a torch in some areas, and I absolutely agree that this should be the case.
• Potions can fail - understandable, either it's an instant use with long cool-down, or open to interruption while channeling. I got a bit of a surprise when I first found out I could get interrupted.

Challenge Dungeon

There are 19 Levels (I assume that the Lich Mage and Archer room was the last) of increasing difficulty, or tedium. I've also put down my strategy on how to deal with them, please note the numbers may not be completely right, as I was counting on the fly for many of these battles.

By Level:

1. Deer x 3
   As pointed out by someone - this is a little cruel, but oh well, an omelette needs eggs.
   
   
2. Wolf x 3
   Simple fight, getting warmed up!
   
   
3. Bear x 3
   They can hit a little hard, you can start practising how to segregate and pull mobs from their aggro range.
   
   
4. Skeleton Archers x 4
   This will give your first taste of what it's like to be pelted in multiple directions, be careful of fall damage!
   
   
5. Lich Mage x 1, Skeleton Footman x 2
   Run up immediately to the platform, the other 2 footmen do not know how to circle around and you can take your time.
   
   
6. Chest Mimics x 4, Barrel Mimics x 4
   One at a time, very nice gold on their corpses.
   
   
7. Slime x 4
   Just annoying, they do split upon magical death, so it is pointless to attempt to avoid using physical damage on them. If you are having difficulty, split enemies in 2, then target one of the halves and the subsequent splits. They die after after 2 splits.
   
   
8. Lich Archer x 1, Slime x 3, Skeleton Archer x 3, Skeleton Footman x 3
   On activating the circle, run back to the door, this way you will deal with a much smaller crowd (slimes and the lich archer + 1 or 2 skeletons) Use water mechanics to aid you, jump onto the island when being swarmed by footmen.
   
   
9. Giant Spiders x 7
   With many more adds if you walk near eggs. Be careful of fall damage here, it takes about 60? damage per fall. Try to jump to the ramps to mitigate height from fall damage.
   
   
10. Giant Spiders x 5, Slimes x 6
    They're all nicely separated, with slimes on towers with stairs leading up. A test of patience really, becareful of fall damage as usual - we can't climb down stairs at this point!
    
    
11. Cave Wrasse x 9
    Nothing special, a good reprieve, kill them all and move on.
    
    
12. Kobold Mage x 1, Kobold Fighter x 8
    Only the mage poses a threat here, he spawns near the exit of this cave, so take him out quickly and then pick off the rest.
    
    
13. Kobold Mages x 4, Kobold Fighters x 5
    You'll get pelted by 2 Kobold Mages around the corner, you'll have to pull them to the starting point where you dropped from a ledge. Take them out first, then rest up (kite a little), before leaping over to a small island where 2 other Kobold Mages are. The Fighters won't reach you, so you'll be safe to pick them off after the mages are dead.
    
    
14. Fire Elemental x 5, Ice Elemental x 5
    Run to the far right corner (away from lava), and watch them expire Don't be a hero! Be safe, not sorry! The lava is pretty, not sure if it kills, didn't want to find out. Maybe I will later. Natural elementals shouldn't expire like that!
15. Elf Archer x 4, Elf Fighter x 4
    Kiting time! I hope you've received enough practice till now, you're going to need it for the next few matches. Take out the archers first.
    
    
16. Elf Mage x 5, Elf Archer x 3
    This one is difficult, you'll need to kill the mages very quickly, or you'll be killed off. I discovered a safe point, it's to the left of the exit ramp, you can hide here safely (after killing 1 mage there) to recover if need be. But if you are swift, you can defeat the mages fast enough to achieve healing equilibrium.
    
    
17. Elf Mages x 5, Elf Archers x 5, Elf Fighters x 5
    (My personal favourite, as the all time most difficult)
    This is an armada of elves, a lot of it depends on luck, take a corner, kill the mage there and move on till all the mages in the corners are killed. If you take too much damage before they're all dead, it's over for you. I honestly don't believe a single player can manage this without some luck and good prior planning. You will be under a constant hail of arrows, they don't do a lot of damage, but it's death by a thousand cuts.
    
    
18. Satyr Mage x 2, Satyr Archer x 2, Satyr Fighter x 2
    The mages hit like a car, the fighters hit like a truck. Very difficult fight, but manageable. Head to either of the platforms on the left or right, take out the mage first, then move to the other side. Mobility is key here, slip up and you'll get smashed by the fighter for 50+ damage. DO NOT aggro both mages at the same time, it's a death sentence.
    
    
19. 3 x Lich Mage, 3 x Lich Archer (Unknown Number)
    I give up. No sensible hero would ever venture into a trap like that I couldn't count properly as I was too busy dodging and running. I'd imagine you need a full party here of players here, it would be impossible without stealth mechanisms for the lone wolf at this point.

All-in-all, it was fairly tedious on my fifth try, would be nice if you could teleport to the last tier you unlocked. It takes me about 2 hours to get from Level 1 through 19.

I've posted my build in a separate thread (sorry I can't seem to link somehow).

Having a blast and still am, very happy with my pre-alpha experience so far.

Edit: feedback regarding AI

 

Impressive, very impressive.
I couldn't get past 8. Probably due to not having good enough build.

 

I think there is another elvish room between 16 and 17 (edit: Or maybe I missed 15 because there is no space between it and 14)

After liches (I think 3 Fighter, 3 mages and 3 Archers, but I am not sure), there is room for mimics, in the corner, there is safe spot on boxes.

 

Great feedback!

I couldn't get past level 5.

Well done!

 

Very impressive indeed! Congrats on doing it solo. Now, to take a peek at your build...

 

I died in 8 also, apparently because my plate was all down to 0 durability, well, and because of the lich archer getting a critical hit on me. I'm not too keen on that. Shots that never miss shouldn't crit.

 

We completed the lich fight with 8 people (plus Net outside of the door). We kept running behind the statues to evade the ranged attacks and while we all died a couple of times there was always someone alive. Self healing helps a lot, just run behind a statue and spam heal yourself. Be sure to target the archers and mages first, since you can easily outrun the fighters. Hope this helps.

 

Well done! I bet it was an epic fight!

Anyhow, about that room with lava - for the benefit of those who might be keen to travel to the crystal cave depths:



The lava can hurt you, it deals 16 damage per 0.5 second (or something like that).

 

Kvow and I just did this dungeon challenge again and we got as far as Level 17, with all those elves. We got overwhelmed with spam attacks from the archers and mages. And me, being a squishy mage in light armor, did not fair too well against the spam. I need a better defense against those, as I died several times whenever the level included ranged spam attacks. Luckily Kvow survived long enough for me to recover and assist.

 

@ Smack - sometimes the RNG gods do not smile on me and I get high damage fireballs hurled at me - that's why I'd say it boils down to some luck for the small party / lone wolf. I've done room 17 a few times, my track record for survival is only about 1 in 5. Definitely needs a bigger party to soak up all that fiery fire.

If they animated the number of arrows and scorch marks on my character...

 

Sunswords let not pass out that build too much, lol J/K But that build rocks, I played it the past two days and was very impressed. Now I am going to have to worry about other players having it next release or the devs nurffing it.

 

I retried this again last night solo and was able to get to Level 8 using my squishy mage. Didn't use any of the tactics or build described above, so it was a bit overwhelming in terms of numbers of mobs and types (ranged mobs still kill me way too quickly). With a bit more practice, I think I could have made it to maybe Level 13 at best without any other tweaks to the build. Doubt I'd survive beyond that without drastic changes, with possibly better deck management hotswapping between multiple builds.

As a pure mage, I'd say all spells are severely gimped in terms of damage dealt. Even Level 5 Fiery Decay combos or Level 5 Fireballs felt severely gimped, with all Fire Innate skills at Level 5. Granted the DOTs are nice but (but could use a boost) when you are spam attacked by ranged or swarmed by melee, you don't survive more than 0.5 seconds so the DOTs are useless when solo.

 

My group completed the Challenge Dungeon on saturday, it was an incredible fun experience. I am sorry I can't give good advice because I was too busy healing everyone and shooting a fire arrow here and there . More details HERE.

 

Awesome, congrats AvatarGG! I'm very much looking forward to Challenge Dungeon #2 -- or even the same one to see whatever tweaks they've made on it based on our feedback and testing data.

 

Sunday group, about 14 players reached treasure chest, was really fun.

 

Well you see... Herein lies a potentially bigger problem - so far I've not been killed in PvP with this build either (I had a draw against a player using knockdown, stuns and heals - that was a very solid build, I enjoyed having all the special effects thrown at me), we were at it for 10 minutes? Before we both mutually got tired. It's still very early in development to say if certain builds are overpowered, but this is what some Avatars (myself included) are wary about - Hybrid Tank Mages and Player Megatrons (I love using this description too much) transforming between heavy armor and cloth armor.

In the next release I will extensively test various magical builds combined with alchemy, geared for both combat and defense.