It's called FINESSE not DPS

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Waxillium, Oct 28, 2014.

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  1. Waxillium

    Waxillium Avatar

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    DPS is not how PvP is won (aka Min/Max)

    FINESSE is how PvP is won

    Some elements of FINESSE include:

    Close range attack (Single or DOT)
    Distance attack (Single or DOT)
    Innate damage mediation (Stats, Resistance, Avoidance)
    Active damage mediation (Douse, Running, Positioning, Sprint, Dash)
    Fizzle awareness and appropriate armor
    Control (Root, Gust, Knockdown, Stun, Knockback, etc)
    Healing (Life, Death, and Potions)

    This is not exhaustive by any means. Avoiding a massive wall of text for a mini wall.

    An excellent case in point was when I was teaching a new player (HeavySmoker) game mechanics on The Brave Coast and I was attacked by Turin (Top 20 Grinder). The timing was perfect for a demo.

    As a full DPS spec according to some I should have won the fight. 82 Str! Attack skill of 153 buffed! Full Plate! I crit 70 to 120 one in 6 hits. Each swing I get two hits! How could I lose?
    (My grind build, I would not PvP with that setup)

    Not surprising to FINESSE PvP players I lost 0/3.

    DPS DOES NOT WIN FIGHTS!

    Having HP left when your opponent has none is how you win fights.
    Yes you must do damage to win.
    You must also survive.
    This might be a paradigm shift for some.
    Feel free to shift.

    He was level 54 and I was level 53. Between the two of us I was a MIN/MAX DPS champion and he was the FINESSE champion representative. Toe to toe he would lose which is why he never let that happen.

    Turin’s FINESSE list I observed:
    Close = Polearm (can also control, bypass armor)
    Far = Lightning (can also control via stun)
    Innate (the usual)
    Actives (running, sprint)
    Appropriate armor with focus fizzle reduction (I asked)
    Root
    Healing and Death (also a ranged)

    Kvow’s "FINESS" list:
    2 handed Bludgeon
    Knockdown/Stun/Knockback (all very short acting control)

    The game is not about DPS it is about FINESSE and HP. If it was about DPS it would be 3/0 for Kvow.

    The combat system is amazing and it is also complex. When you are losing you feel like it is about DPS but that is probably because the person who understands FINESSE also understands DPS so the DPS is the most obvious component.
     
  2. Drocis the Devious

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    You're comparing nuance between two people playing in a broken system.

    Yes, that's true, and DPS stands for Damage Per Second. So when you have more hit points than your opponent, you did more DPS than your opponent. That's kind of my point. Winning is defined by DPS.

    The combat system is neither amazing nor is it complex. The combat system is guys with full plate armor hacking at each other for as much damage as they can. If sometimes they are outside the range that a polearm can hit (what is that btw, 30 feet?) and they use lightning, that doesn't really make a convincing argument for sophistication.

    When you look at the following video, what do you see? A lack of FINESS? Because what I see is a game where some dude picked the biggest weapon, the best armor, and the easiest way to use latency to his advantage (jump around) and perfected the exploitation of a horrible HORRIBLE combat system.



    And seriously, this is not about me winning or losing because when I play the game in Full Platemail and use a polearm, suddenly I'm not so bad at PVP. I've been to the Brave Coast and fought many times. Do you know what everyone's told me when I asked for advice? They've handed me a Polearm and told me to put on some Platemail.

    There are very few people playing PVP right now because it's not a lot of fun to FINESS jumping around and moving through people so you can turn and quickly attempt to stab them in the back for a crit. (at least, it's not fun for most people, there are a handful of people that do this A LOT, but I don't think they represent a large population of people that will play this game)

    I watched the Bear Tavern Bawl this weekend, I don't remember seeing anyone win a match against a player in platemail that wasn't also wearing platemail. I know all the finalist wore platemail and used two-handed weapons.

    Look Kvow, I like you. I think you're skilled. But this combat system isn't going to show that. This combat system is going to keep people from enjoying the game. I like PVP, I just want a good system, a fair system, a competitive system that I can play in and have fun. This is not it. W'ere not moving in the right direction, and as much as I like PVP I won't be participating in it at all when launch comes if it continues to be based on DPS.

    That's why I'm so adamant about the devs fixing this now. That's why I'm not pulling punches. That's why I'm not finessing my way around what's obviously a huge problem.
     
  3. KuBaTRiZeS

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    Great post @Kwow! That's indeed the kind of behavior that make a pvpr wins fight. Problem with current system in my opinion is to achieve results while taking different approaches. That's a fine build but i think Turin made it thinking about a different kind of minmaxing; asking himself "what's better for PVP?". I'd like to expose some thoughts... Maybe i'm wrong since i haven't pvp'd at all still this release, but i think i can be accurate):
    • Polearms are the weapon of choice closely followed by two handed maces because of dps + control, i think that's out of discussion.
    • Was he wearing a plate chest to take advantage of the strength bonuses, and keeping everything else as light armour to minimize fizzles?
    • Lightning is, in my opinion, best magical choice for pvp closely followed by water because of DPS + control.
    • Healing magic is arguably the best healing recovery mechanic, since potions are so expensive. I heard death magic was working better than in last release, but i'd suggest to remove one of them and change it by water.
    Now let's talk about choices. I think the most common approach while creating a character is "what i'd love to be in this game?" and that kinds of characters are not open to choose what's best to own.
    • What about the sword and shield warrior? he doesn't stand a chance against polearms or ranged control because it doesn't have any control.
    • What about the full wizard? His damage output is going to be lower than the polearm hybrid guy and will certainly get killed because he'd need to run a lot (and lots of expensive reagents) to be able to put him down.
    • What about the two wielding light armored combatant? Didn't tested that this release, but in R10 two wielding didn't have any against towards a two handed weapon (and some drawbacks). Just by fighting, even talking about two bludgeoners (since there are no one handed polearms) the one with the two handed weapon has more chance of winning, even if they're equally skilled.
    • What about the pure archer? he'd hit and hit while his enemy heals and heals; once he's in melee range, he'd better pray for survival.
    I'm not trying to take down your points; PVP is about Skill as the best way of taking advantage of the tools you have, but everybody has the right of having tools in the roles they choose to make their role able to put a good fight. The way i see it, that build could be the best in PVP. Where's the choice if there's a best build?

    In my opinion, system at the moment is nice, but it's not AWESOME. And honestly, it could be! As i said to Chris, They offered us a system with encourages choices (deck system), but most skills of the current skill set are dull and don't encourage you to ponder about a choice or another. And i think defensive skills are the least used in the skill set. I want to feel the thrill of having to choose the right option in a split second every single time i'm fighting a worthy oponent, and right now.
    • Removing auto attack could help greatly to eliminate the great weight put on DPS.
    • Revamp the way damage is calculated, so skills don't have a perceived similar damage output. (What should i do? should i Slow my target with a Disabling shot? or use Piercing shot to finish him fast? Right now that kind of choice because it doesn't exist; Piercing shot seems to have a similar output than Disabling shot, so why i should use one instead of another?)
    • Give defensive skills a chance to turn the tides of battle, not just a flat increase to a stat nobody seems to find appealing.
    I'm sorry if this took so long, but combat (specially related to PVP) is something about i could ramble for endless lines. As i said, combat right now is nice, but i want it to be awesome! I completely agree with Kvow; this is about FINESSE, so i beg the Devs... please, BRING IN MORE FINESSE!
     
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  4. Waxillium

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    No. I'm pointing out that there is nuance in an unfinished unbalanced game.

    No. It's not. Winning is reducing someones points down to zero. A character can have a high DPS potential and be taken down by a character with low DPS potential but high survivability.

    That is true if you a re looking at the surface. It's irrelevant which skill or item is currently popular or broken/unbalanced. Can people fight who know how to survive and have the battle not end too soon or take too long? Yes. Can people almost die and come back to win? Yes.

    I know there is a best build. You can't be an Olympic swimmer by training in Hockey. PvP will have a best build but hopefully they will design equally good builds. Role-play desires and PvP may never be in harmony. PvP is about surviving by doing anything you can. Roleplay is about style cause style don't care about the cost to PvP. I'm more concerned now that mages and archers suck at PvE compared to melee. That affects roleplay.

    If I want to role-play I'll probably have the right skills to get myself out of PvP and avoid death knowing that I'll be roleplaying a style who survives but might not win.

    Objectively I see someone who was prepared using what is here now and someone who was not and asked to be killed. Also, the guy who died could have used sprint and dash to never be touched by this guy and hopefully moon magic soon.

    Exactly. When using the mechanics at hand you can volley.

    Jumping hinders your auto attack and eats focus. Don't assume that is doing anyone favors. It's a carryover from other games.

    I know you do. We are not insulting each other, just not agreeing. I like that you have opinions and challenge things. You do however need some of us to act as your bumpers (bowling) to make sure your energy is not off course. Some of us disagree with you but not about everything. Combat is unbalanced and 2 of the 3 common play styles are not good yet.

    "Baby out with the bath water"

    I honestly have not experienced DPS as the be all and end all when it comes to two people working the non-broken elements to the systems. Not balance, but they do what they are programmed to do.

    Thanks. I read your concerns and have similar worries/questions.
     
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  5. redfish

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    Jumping and running around is another name for dodging :> Which should work well with one skillset (roguish light armor and tactical skills) more than others.
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    Jumping and moving around is used to create latency. If it is more useful to run around and dodge things using skills, people will use those skills.

    The guy in the video is not using those skills, he's creating latency because that helps him appear and reappear. It's what players do. If you design your game correctly, they can't do that.
     
  7. Margard

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    Yes but the answer is not turn base ... and I like X-Com :)
     
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  8. Drocis the Devious

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    You're wrong. You're advocating for a system that is fundamentally broken. The devs can't and will never balance this system because the only mechanics to this system are damage and cool downs. If this system continues without major refinement, 10 years from now people are still going to be asking to nerf this and tweak that because such and such weapons are too powerful and so and so build can't compete.

    Do you know how I know this? Because every game that uses this type of combat logic has these problems until they finally close the door on the game.

    The worst part of all this is me knowing that to be proven correct in my analysis, I'll have to wait for years of people making excuses and ignoring the obvious. Only for some knew shiny game to come along (that uses the same stupid combat logic) and have everyone rush over to that as if combat will be any better.
     
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  9. Drocis the Devious

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    I've consistently said that the combat system needs "turn based elements". I didn't say they should turn it into pokemon.
     
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  10. Margard

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    Its early - but at the moment if I were to pictorialize the combat with a plate wearing combatant with a pole arm vs anyone else besides another combatant with similar gear I would draw a block vs a twig

    So nuance is needed but this notion of PvP being about simple battle logic needs to change

    I don't mean to undermine the current state of the plate wearing combatant wielding a polearm - thats fine / the issue is the context.

    An archer should be able to take out any enemy that cannot deflect an incoming arrow / likewise an archer should not be able to fire a bow at close range

    If Portalarium wants to be unique and special it needs to incorporate more "context base combat" into its scheme of how they perceive in game PvP ... other wise its really just same ole same ole

    If I as an archer can't drop my bow and equip a shield and sword before the enemy closes in on me ... there is something lost in a meaningful experience (and I don't mean insta equip)

    If as a heavy armour individual can outlast an archer / through "stamina" and movement there is something wrong

    If as an heavy armored individual if I have no shield and a fire ball hits me / i should be severely injured

    This is just one example - but honestly it would really mean a new look and an adjustment from gamers ...
     
  11. Waxillium

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    If moving around is used to create latency we are screwed.
    Two guys swinging swords while not moving is a DPS race that is boring.
    Two mages having a non-moving casting face off is another boring DPS race.
    A melee destroying a mage as they both don't move is just lame.
    That being said it's a separate issue from DPS vs FINESSE and if people are abusing it then it's more of an exploit in terms of use. Bad form really.
    Also, I'm not advocating for broken. I'm saying that you need finesse to win right now and not just dps.

    I once took Taekwondo lessons where you practice fighting but not hitting. Not very satisfying nor could I understand how not taking a blow would ready me for a fight.

    DPS is just a form of measurement. If you slow it down its damage per minute or damage per hour. To get rid of it you would need to eliminate HP and damage from combat. Is it the speed of combat or just doing damage that is the problem? Stop time and it's turn based combat or damage per turn.
    I would like to know how the non damage based combat system would work.

    If you have damage it will occur in space and time.

    I agree. Movement and combat are synonymous in my mind.

    Agreed. However if the arrow can leave the bow it can be fired. The archer may not be able to block the sword that is rushing towards them and should take a defence penalty or severe bow damage. If I was an archer with no sword I'd shoot over not believing it would do anything.
     
  12. Ravicus Domdred

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    although one on one is a grave concern and I do not dismiss it, guild wars will be a part of sota. I wonder if maybe limited play styles(not overpowering builds), could contribute to teamwork. An archer would be behind melee and firing volleys into the opponents. a mage also squishy, would be devastating to opposing forces if protected by melee. I understand that there needs to be balance and I do not discount this, but I also realize that we should be rewarded with teamwork, no one person should know everything. Just a thought, and I realize that in solo player this would not work, and in 1 vs 1 it would not work, but it would be great for planning team battles, or guild battles.
     
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  13. Drocis the Devious

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    @Kvow

    I'm going to name all the quantifiable factors I can think of in the combat system that impact DPS.

    Healing
    Hit Points
    Attack Skill
    Defense Skill
    Armor
    Weapons
    Magic Spells
    Combat Skills
    Levels
    Build
    Critical Hits

    Maybe I'm missing some. But just the ones I've listed cover a ton of ground.

    Now I'm going to list all the qualitative factors that don't have anything to do with DPS.

    Position
    Movement
    Timing
    Instincts

    I can't think of anymore.

    Now to me the case you're trying to make here is that the combat system requires Position, Movement, Timing, and Instincts to be successful, to win. And the case I'm making is that although those things certainly exist, they're essentially not important because DPS and those things are so much more of a determining factor, in my opinion. I would also say that Position, Movement, and Timing, are illusions because the internet isn't really giving you (or your opponent) a fair representation of what's actually going on (see the video I posted above for reference). So at the end of the day, I don't think "instincts" are something that is fairly represented in this combat system because to make that case, players would have to have the ability to something OTHER THAN click on skills that do damage to impact combat.

    Currently, there's just very little that a player can do that has anything reasonably close to instinctive player choices.

    Let me show you what I mean.

    In the current system. If you and I are the same level wearing the same armor and using the same build, what does that fight look like? We both run at each other and swing. The internet lies to me and says you're in position X, the internet lies to you and says I'm in position Y. You swivel and turn after your attack and goto where the internet tells you I am. I do the same and we swing at each other again. To outside spectators, this might look like "a dance" but really it's just two people trying to find where the other person went and hitting them every chance we get. It's really just the internet and the network code trying their best to be as close as possible to the spirit of what it's being asked to do. Sometimes, what you see and what I see are WAY OFF THE MARK and in our attempts to adjust we over compensate. But in the end, someone does more damage to the other person and wins the fight.

    Now lets look at how I think that should change. I think that instead of running around pressing damage buttons and THINKING we're in some kind of dance together (when the reality is that we're just getting bad information from the internet), we should instead be able to BLOCK attacks. I think we should be able to COUNTER attacks. I think we should be able to FEIGN attacks. Because having the INSTINCTS to do this at the right time and in the right position is what would TRULY require player skill.

    But to COMPENSATE for the technical limitations of the internet, my proposal is that we introduce turn based ELEMENTS to the deck system that would allow us to be more refined in our application of fair and competitive play. We can't expect to BLOCK, COUNTER, or FEIGN attacks in real time. Heck, I don't even know how we can have backstabbing in real time. This is not just me saying this last part, Darkstarr actually made this comment in the last round table and that was one of the reasons that they tried to contain some of the movement in the game.

    Look, I know it's fun to run around and believe that you have control of your character and that there's significant skill involved in what we have now. But it's just not true. There's skill there, but it's a small percentage in the factor to win or loose if all other things are equal. Kvow, I'm pretty sure if the levels were equal, and the builds were equal, and you wore cloth and used a short sword and shield versus my 10 year old son that wore platemail and carried a polearm. He'd clean your clock.

    I'm not saying that as a challenge, I'm saying it as a fact. He or anyone with ANY kind of basic ability to use a keyboard and mouse would win that battle versus ME or YOU or anyone else in this game.

    Don't believe me, get rid of your skills down whatever your opponent has, use cloth armor, a short sword and shield and go duel people in plate using a two-handed weapon and see what happens. What's the difference? DPS.
     
  14. MalakBrightpalm

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    Interestingly enough, jumping around running, using quick slide dodges and rolls... this is effective in REAL LIFE. When both combatants are equally fit and athletic, it's not a huge deal (but might still save you from a bad hit), but when fighting an opponent who cannot match your speed and stamina all that dodging can exhaust that opponent, leaving him open to your counterattack.

    So lag might not be quite so unrealistic in THIS case.

    Now, completely ignoring those who are now screaming and beating their faces against their keyboards, I hate losing because of SEVER lag, and I've fought people using obvious laghacks. I am NOT advocating using lag to cheat. On the other hand, if I can outmaneuver you by using those kinds of moves, it's not unrealistic.

    That being said, I PREFER to beat my opponent partially before we ever MEET. Building a smarter character, finding and combining undervalued build components, creating something other's won't expect. When all someone has is gimmickery in the moment, being able to beat them with planning is really awesome.

    The only part of the OP that I dislike or disagree with would be
    My rebuttal is that control powers do not deserve the position they have assumed in modern MMO PvP. They are wildly unrealistic, and inherently unbalanced. If I REALLY had access to a move that hit you so hard you momentarily lost consciousness, or experienced paralysis, or became unable to focus your mystic talent at manipulating the energy of cheese, or whatever you do... that same amount of force would be enough just kill you. Ya' know, skull fracture? Severed spinal cord? It's kinda the same objection that I have with taunt and threat mechanics (It's not that there's anything special, or dangerous about that clanking pile of plate armor, it's just mysteriously annoying, so ignore the forty guys actively disemboweling you and hammer on his shield. Yeah, that makes sense.)

    Now, I have no problem with roots, I don't mind interrupts or slows, but anything that can just switch someone off for three seconds is A) wildly unrealistic, and B) chainable. Stunlock is retarded.
     
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  15. Drocis the Devious

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    @MalakBrightpalm

    1. Lag is not "realistic" under any circumstance. I understand your point about running and jumping being a viable tactic, but the way it's done in this system is cheap and wrong. These actions are not helping make for good combat, they're exploiting the combat system. There's a huge difference between those two things.

    I'm totally for skills that let you move and jump in ways that don't have unintended side effects and are structured into the competitive balance of the game. But watch that video I posted above and tell me where anything that guy did involved skill. He literally just out classed me from a DPS standpoint and killed me 4 hits without my computer even telling me he was close enough to throw a punch at.

    2. I love the idea of winning fights before they begin. Sun Tzu 4tehwin! But the way this system works, it forces best builds. That means that if you're a roleplayer well tough luck you'll just either stop being a mage this month so you can be competitive in pvp. Or next month you'll just stop being an archer so you can be competitive. Whenever the devs finally patch up some of these unbalanced holes, it's just going to be your job to figure out the new best build and go do that! (note I'm talking in a future tense here about my perception that the devs will be in a constant state of plugging up DPS holes in their system but never actually achieving a reasonable balance).
     
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  16. Waxillium

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    Healing does not affect damage per second in the attacker. It only affects damage per second in the caster but it then increase health per second.

    Hard to argue that health points don't play a part as you need them before damage can be done to you. What is the alternative to health points?

    Attack skill affects your ability to hit which does increase your ability to damage more often. Basic hitting and missing. Not sure it's a combat culprit.

    If you can perform an action you should be able to figure out a way to defend against it. Not combat breaking. Human ingenuity.

    Armor prevents you from taking damage and also should slow you down. Everyone in our society wears protective gear of some sort that has a defence level > skin. It will prevent damage.

    Of course weapons affect your damage. Large ones, small ones, fast ones, slow ones. So what?

    I don't understand. All of those affect DPS?

    Position affects range, vision, momentum, inaccessibility. >dps and <dps taken.
    Movement interrupts your auto attack at present (and it should). <dps.
    Timing absolutely affects dps. Any skill used at the wrong time misses. <dps. correct time >dps
    Instincts tells you where to be based on your ingrained understanding of long trained skills and which skill to use next = >dps.

    The case I'm trying to make is that DPS is a fact of life and not a bogeyman.

    HP = loss of HP = damage in time/space = dps. So what?

    I did not use the words position, movement, timing or instinct in the OP

    In game at the present its:

    I disagree. Lag is different from the current choices. You can do any of the above instead of any other action above. The correct adaptable sequence leads you to victory. I don't need to root a guy in my face if thats where I want him. I should probably knock him down, stun him, or puncture his armor if I want to keep the upper hand.

    Blocks, feigns, and counter attacks already have a model of existence. Gust and root are a block or form of damage mediation. All of them fit under the umbrella of control. Every miss is technically a feign as it does no damage and you try to back away from it regardless. Any attack that you do after an attack is a counter attack. Some are just smooth and work beautifully like fencing while others are a two handed axe swing to the head.

    Not all of these are well executed in game at present but they are still a rose by any other name.

    This is the heart of where we disagree. People are consistently the winners of PvP fights even as the model changes which tells me they are masters of the nuanced FINESSE despite the fact that all combat has DPS.

    Of course someone can beat me if you limit my skill options and handcuff me to a bed. If however we all get 300 skills points to do as we choose then FINESSE wins over DPS.

    DPS is not the problem. Making sure there are appropriate skills for the categories I mentioned for each class is the problem. I want to battle pure melee, pure archers, pure mages and hybrids and know that they all have a fair chance if they utilize all aspects of combat as presented to us in the game.

    and I agree with


    All balance goes to hell when it's not 1v1 PvP.
     
  17. Drocis the Devious

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    It's not a boogeyman, but it's also not a fact of life either.

    I can design all kinds of combat systems that have no DPS or Cool Downs or any of that. It's not required and my argument is that by using it we handcuff ourselves to a broken and doomed system. But since I realize this is unlikely to change, I spend most of my time trying to lobby for ELEMENTS that would make the current system much better than it would be on its current path.
     
  18. Waxillium

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    I work with brain dead patients donating organs. I get it better then most. I agree its unrealistic but without even synthetic control skills it becomes DPS with no FINESSE. I think developers are stuck using these potentially cheap tricks to help a battle last longer then one sword stroke.

    Start from the ground up and see where you get.

    One hit kills.
    Nope. Thats not fun.
    Ok. You can block or dodge some of it and have a chance at a one stroke kill.
    Thats not fair! I need some block and dodge too so I can have a chance at a second X to finish you off.
    But wait!...

    I'm sure this could go on endlessly or to the point where we have a combat system that we have. Medium length fights that only work in a few skill trees currently but it still works.

    I see the problem as making the different skill trees work competitively without everything looking the same but having a different name.
     
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  19. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

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    I understand this :) But does everything have to revolve around this. Think back to D&D, Think back to when you did have to rely on a group to succeed. ( I know this is a "classless system). But what is wrong with creating community with actually needing support? (not knowing and doing everything with one character). I understand pvp is part of the game but should solo pvp be all of the game?
     
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  20. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

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    I agree with your goal, but I think you missed a turn on the road to get there. The only thing that I an others have been crying out for was "no HARD stuns". You can have stunning effects that leave me off balance, slower moving, increased focus costs, reduced range, reduced accuracy... but something that switches off my UI is too much. Not even for a second.
     
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