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I am shocked by the character progression system

Discussion in 'Release 11 Feedback' started by robatzen, Oct 28, 2014.

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  1. Lord Spaz

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    isnt it because it was very easy to write scripts for the game? every other game has bots far less than uo had but I think its because it wass just easier back then and there were very accessible programms to do it I dont think it had anything to do with the szstem in itself and if so its easy to make a few tweaks to prvent too many bots
     
  2. Wonderboy2402

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    I think SotA needs to do more to stand separate from MMOs. Things such as the custom housing re something i have wanted since UO. This is a GREAT feature. But the combat and magic need to be something special too. There are just way to many modern MMOs with orders of magnitude greater budgets for them to try and emulate.

    Especially when it comes to the sort of combat in this game currently, and the familiar (frankly disgusting) skill trees that are now all to common place. I would not be opposed to a complete scrapping of the combat as it is now, but I doubt they can afford to rework it.
     
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  3. Drocis the Devious

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    That's a good question. I know when I followed Darkfall, the devs would always say stuff like "We have ways to detect that stuff and we will ban everyone that uses hacks and scripts". But every time I hear people talk about Darkfall they always mention how it's like the most exploitable game there's ever been.
     
  4. High Baron Asguard

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    Who cares? honestly so what if people chose to "cheat" there way through the skill system. Just make sure its fun and interesting and if people chose to cheat it then they are only cheating themselves
     
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  5. Margard

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    There are huge impacts on the game as a whole and its player base specially when you want to implement a player run economy to ignore this problem

    If Portalarium follows this approach regardless of their gaming concept will in large part be for naught
     
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  6. Drocis the Devious

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    Can't we say that about anything? Where do we draw the line? Perhaps when you start to care?

    I care. That's who cares.
     
  7. High Baron Asguard

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    Not anymore than someone who has unlimited time to play while I have to work and so can only play a couple of hours a week. That's why single player games will always be superior, because no matter what you do it has no effect on me. If you chose to cheat your way to the top of the skill tree and Margard is retired so can play 20 hours a day neither of these things should have any impact on my 2 hours a week
     
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  8. Margard

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    I get the no impact aspect / thats cool ... but if you play single player online - your economy will be impacted ... and while I agree on the single player experience ... part of the full vision ... at least how I understand it is to enhance the single player experience by giving you a more believable world

    There are other issues here that we can discuss ... but put it simply; even a game that is centered on competition can have a good world but it needs for said company to make it a priority and implement policies to discourage behavior ... both legal in game actions and illegal ones

    You really can't have the freedom of UO and expect to have a great game for everyone (just opinion - feel free to disagree- just don't insult)
     
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  9. High Baron Asguard

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    I have no problem with that, I just don't really see a huge difference in the effect between someone who is cheats there way through the skill system and someone who has unlimited time on there hands and would rather see the devs focusing on a way to make the game enjoyable no matter what level you are than spend that same time trying to prevent "cheats" in the skill system. In the crafting system I can understand there being more concern but in the combat skills the only people who are really effected are the PvPers and to my mind there has been to much focus on what's good for PvP at the expense of everyone else already
     
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  10. Lord Spaz

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    agreed cheaters can completely ruin a game especially for the people who play legit apart from the unfair advantage they got, they ruin the whole economy and if things go really bad the server may require a wipe punishing the legit players as well, Ive seen it happen. Most recent example was gta online, where cheaters gave billions to other players so even if you didnt want it there was nothing you could do to prevent it so the developers wiped all the money from all the players .
     
  11. Margard

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    Skill progression / xp or by "use" has an impact on gameplay - play approach and how people move through content ... you may be "playing it right" but other people may just game their way through the path of least resistance ... to a degree it affects content - which will affect the single player experience (its a catch 22) .... it boils down to if the development wants you to "play it how it was intended" (designed for a certain play approach)

    in regards to PvP - I have pointed opinions and I think I'm right :p ... only time will tell if my assumptions are correct in regards to the development of this game (but I'll keep those to myself)
     
  12. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I agree, SotA needs to stand out more and should have tried to do things much more different. Less combat skills, more RPG skills, an active combat system, training by doing like in The Elder Scrolls, gaining attribute points and HP by leveling up and seeking trainers.
    And of course a different spell system where you have to find spells in ancient tomes or find powerful mages to teach you spells and then add them to your spellbook. Also it would have been better to have to prepare spells in advance according to the spells you have in your spellbook and the reagents you need to cast them. This would have slowed down combat and made it more tactical which would also have been a way to circumvent the lag at least a bit.

    Right now combat, spells and character advancement feel like in any other generic MMO which is somewhat sad...

    But I fear that it is too late to change those things?
     
  13. Razimus

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    The skill system of UO wasn't bad, in fact, it is better than a level based system, period. Where do I get this fact? There was a poll done before UO came out, I participated, it was in 1996, it was on owo.com, the poll was, "What would you prefer, a Level Based System or Skill Based System?" 99% Voted Skill Based, if the poll were taken today it would be the same, maybe 90%, maybe 80% but the majority would vote for a skill based system, period. Don't believe me? Make a poll, without skewing it, worded exactly the same as the old owo.com poll and prove me wrong.
     
  14. robatzen

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    I totally agree with that!

    And it is one of the reasons that I am feeling so desperately disappointed about the character progression system that is in SotA now.
    I would simply not have expected to see a shallow level-based-system like this ... :(

    But if I read all the posts in this thread I get the feeling that a lot of players are not familiar with a skill-based-progression-system anymore ... and I am not sure anymore if your 80% are still true today.

    Instead of a native system where you actually have to use the skills you want to increase, like a cook has to cook, a fishermen has to fish, a hunter has to hunt and swordsmen has to slash, where progression is connected to what you are actually doing ingame, they expect this as a "grindy" system. It seems that a lot of folks prefer a system where skill-points are not related to skills ...

    Kill a goblin ... gain a level ... use the experience to raise your cooking skill ...
    Kill a bear ... gain a level ... use the experience to raise your alchemy skill ...
    Kill a lich ... gain a level ... the the experience to raise your music skill ...

    That always felt so wrong and artificial ... the application of skills is completly detatched from raising these skills. :(

    Killing goblins is all you need ... and by some mysterious magic this is helping you to increase all the skills you have. That sounds like an odd world ...
     
  15. Razimus

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    Yeah makes sense, I agree. The argument is that skill based is easier to script? How is this even an argument? When you can gain skills and script just as easily and
    as you pointed out killing monsters will gain for anything you want to use that level point for and thus the monster killing macro scripters won't need to write
    any other script, they'll only need 1 script, the monster killing script, thus making it 50x easier to macro script to the max level.

    But I agree 100%, a cook needs to cook not kill monsters to gain in the level of the craft of cooking.
     
  16. robatzen

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    Exactly that, I tried to explain that several times in this thread ... scripting / macroing is not an argument when it comes to the decision between a skill-based and a level-based system of character progression. First of all both systems might be exploited by scripting and like you said a level-based system is probably even more easy to exploit ...

    I would agree that macroing might be a valid argument against a skill-based system. I think we all remember the crowd of players at WBB macroing their hiding skill for hours and hours. But this problem could easily be solved by
    like Spoon suggested or by a
    that I suggested earlier in this thread.

    When I started following SotA I was absolutly convinced that this would be the opinion of the majority of players that are waiting for this game. But now I am not to sure anymore. At least this thread got a lot of attention in a very short time. Which gives me a little bit hope for the furture ...

    Still any kind of official statement on this topic would be highly appreciated!
     
  17. Jyskall

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    I prefer systems based on learning by doing much more, than this standard leveling and setting skill points to abilities. Nearly all MMOs doing the same error, they trying the make all Equal and predictable in their game.
    Its like "perfect" things, they get boring so fast!

    I hate it when all is about the Level:

    - hey the enemy is only 3 Levels above me, i will survive the fight against one with a 90% chance every time.
    -Oh no 4 Level above me, i have to use at least some potions to survive this.
    - An the most annoying thing, you cant play together with other people because your level is to much below them.
    In UO you as a "freshman" could go with the pros to the dangerous dungeons, just stay back, learn from them, and support them with some archery, hold and collect the loot...

    The problem with Scripting cant be solved, but reduced to a level where it doesn't impact the game that much.
    - Make the game interesting to play, not to script.
    - Limit the skill you can gain from one enemy/type in x hours. (just use a simple curve like 10% chance for the first gain, 5% for the second ... 2,5% 1,25% and so on.)
    - build in macroing options where needed. Cooking 100 breeds isn't that entertaining, but you can talk/chat with other players in this time. And often this was one of the most entertaining parts.

    Build in an dynamic environment, that reacts on player actions and emulates an econemy chain by creating Quests/Tasks for players.
    - To much crop needs to be processed
    - The food must be selled to other locations, needs to be stored in new Chests what need ressources.
    - To much food attracts (Animals/Monsters) that must to be killed. -> Stuff for production (Leather and so on)
    - This will make people to play together because merchants, fighters and others are needed.
     
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  18. Lord_Darkmoon

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    So it is either people use scripting to advance if we would have a learning-by-doing-system or people grinding all the time to advance if we have system like it is now. I don't see much difference there... Both systems can be expoited. I would very much prefer a system without grinding.
     
  19. High Baron Asguard

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    Except that is wrong because crafting skills are septate from combat skills. So its win a fight and decide I want a fire ball not win a fight and decide I want cooking
     
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  20. Ted Striker

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    Go play Life is Feudal.
     
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