I am shocked by the character progression system

Its not a problem to show your characters progress with exp and levels. (People love to compete and levels are the easiest way to understand.)


The problem comes when to hole game system is build around your Level and getting it to Max. (Rush instances x times for exp and gear, to get to the next instance with gear and Level Region... and again...)
I never understand why the most games "punish" players that want to play together but their levels are to different. (Begins at 3 or 4 Levels).

Its like all your players got ADHD and you have to keep them playing by absolut nonsense steep progress curves...

 

it wasnt a hack, it but i guess it was kind of an exploit.... because when the server requested the target it was already beeing sent, it was unfair.... of course i knew wich combos to make and when... i was pretty close to beeing unbeatable specially when i partner up with my friend rick who used the same macro i did... magery + pots were pretty overpowered with that targeting technic.

 

i guess leveling in SOTA will be pretty fun because of the deep story and questing, if they do it right you will not even know that you are grinding levels.

questing on ultima series was always fun for me.

 

The leveling system we have now can be exploited in the same way a learning-by-doing-system can be exploited by scripts and macros. People kill monsters over and over and get better. I would call this an exploit as I simply cannot belive that this would a game element a developer can think is fun. And what about those that do not have that much time to grind or do not want to grind? They will be lacking behind just like those will be lacking behind the gamers who use macros.
I do not see how a leveling system we have now ist better than a learning-by-doing-system? If you get EXP from killing monsters then there will always be people who will be grinding.
Aside from the question of why you get better in carpentry when you kill monsters with a fireball...

 

So... real quick... this part...
But also, this is the very reason I don't understand why our combat system is designed the way it is. It seems like we'd want to design the ability to script that kind of thing right out of the equation so that everyone's playing on the same base field of play.
It's actually the BEST "cannot script" combat system I've ever seen... the only problem I have with it right now is the CLA's that we talked about in that combat hangout. I want more of the "don't stand in the poison the spider spits at you" type effects in PvP... we see something done, we avoid it or pay the penalty to keep doing what we're doing. THAT would be great. Besides that, the whole anti script/bot thing that this thread is about is already as handled as it can be... there are cooldowns on locked bars to even the locked bar playing level with macro users and there are random locations of skills with decks so auto clickers wouldn't work.

 

no game are free of botting, but i think a use based system is more prone to do it.... i love the learn by doing system, belive me i really do.... one of my happiest memories was when i reached GM with my tamer and i was off to tame as many white wyverns as i could.... the sentiment of accomplishment was so great i can feel it today.... but i think there is a downside to it, most ppl are used to the good old DING DING.... if this was a single player only game, i would be totally in favor of that system....

 

Howdy folks,

There's too many folks, that have commented/eluded to (in other threads), that they fully intend to use this game as a RL money maker. Some (most?) will be done on the up and up......ex. see renting rooms in their homes for RL money. Others will do it by cheating...ex. see scamming folks by renting them a room and then booting them from the house with no refunds. I don't know if there's a way to stop this kinda thing. I hate saying this, as it's kind of a blanket statement, but as long as money can be made on the outside, then some folks on the inside will find a way to cheat. Be it scamming, lieing, botting, scripting, whatever way works for them. Some are gonna do this no matter how much fun the rest of us are having actually playing.

All I can hope for is that Our Great Dev Team comes up with a way to curb as much of this as possible.

 

There are good studies on fraud that say that about 1/3 of the people will not break rules (or commit a fraud/crime) regardless of the controls that are in place. Another 1/3 of the people will only commit crimes of opportunity. Meaning that if someone leaves money out on a table and no one is looking, they might pick that up if they think there's no way to get caught. Finally there's 1/3 of the people that will lie, cheat, steal and 'break the rules' regardless of what controls are in place, or if they think there's a chance they'll get caught.

So the lesson here is, you have a choice. You can design your game (or your company) to reasonably influence the 2/3 of the people you're able to. Or you can just throw your hands up in the air and say "we'll 1/3 of the people are going to do it anyway so I won't even try to stop them" and have 2/3 of the people probably bleed you dry.

 

Let's hope that the first 1/3 of non rule breakers stay firm, and the Devs can place enough controls in place to influence the middle 1/3rd to remain true and maybe some of the last 1/3rd. If they still cheat then boot them.

 

I do really appreciate the attention this thread is creating and all your input, but I would kindly ask everyone to come back to topic please!

The basic question is not about exploiting, grinding, macroing, scamming, cheating, PvP, PvM, scripting, or hacking ...I got the feeling we are running in circles here.

The basic question I wanted to bring up after I played R11 is, if we want a skill-based-character-progression-system or a level-based-character-progression-system.

Regarding a skill-based-character-progression-system the use and progression of skills are naturally combined. That is to say if you want to raise a certain skill you have to actually use this skill - well maybe that sounds to strict again - you have to use a related skill. For example cutting down a tree primarily raises your woodcutting-skill but also, to a decreased degree, it might raise related skills like carpentry, axe-mastery, or survival. Same for blade-skill, if you want to raise your sword-skill go and slash something ingame, that might also increase related skills like animal-knowledge or anatomy. (All skills are fictional and only used for illustration.)

Regarding a level-based-character-progression system skill-points are global and not attached to a certain skill. That is to say you basically level-up your character by whatever actions and afterwards you are free to use the earned skill-points to increase a skill of your choice. Use and progression of skills are much less combined in that system, because you are free to use the points for whatever skill you wish.

I can absolutly understand the concerns that for example have been brought up by

, and by others. But I still think these concerns are already one step ahead. To my mind most of the concerns apply to both systems, and of course both systems have up- and down-sides.

Nevertheless, to my mind we should at first ask "what we want" and at second we should ask "how to do it" and what are down-sides that need to be considered.

 

shouldn't there be a pool then?

well like i said i rather the exp approach. for the same reasons RG stated many times before.

 

Pretty sure we were already doing that with you.

 

I'd be okay with either.

 

First, sry I participated in the hijacking.....

I think I kinda prefer the skill based system to the leveling system, but not by much. I have a bit of a difficulty with hearing folks talk about (and this is a very basic example)....."hey, I got me some epic armour, and nothing can touch me, so I go out and level my butt off, and without ever casting an offensive spell, now I'm one of the highest level mages out there".....Doesn't always make alot of sense.

My main has always been an archer, so I'm playing an archer in game.

 

I am watching that game, will probably buy it when the LIF:MMO comes out, but now it's only
a LIF:YO version with a max of 64 peeps per player run shard, I'd prefer the MMO version with
10,000+ peeps, it's def an interesting looking game though, watching a few vids on youtube it
looks pretty cool. While it's still being tested it does show some good promise.

 

Jumping into the discussion a little late

Personally, I don't like the type of "Level" system in R11. It creates a certain type of disconnect through an artificial gateway/step-cliff - I.E., when I've crossed an defined numerical point (experience to next level), I instantly gain a whole bunch of skill-points (my brains suddenly expanded with that last rabbit kill?)

It's also very strange that I suddenly have access to new spells in SotA after gaining a level (why am I suddenly able to summon a Lich, just because I killed that last rabbit?) I think this will be resolved when Trainers exist in the world, with certain skills being thought only by specific masters / teachers that may be more exclusive and hard to find.

I'm definitely leaning more towards the old UO system, where skill-use gives a direct advancement in that field, it just feels more realistic and immersive.

The closest (or easiest) compromise I can see to the SotA R11 system is from SWG (Pre-NGE), or Final Fantasy Tactics. You have General Experience and Job Experience. General Experience would go towards the attributes that improved the overall survivability and smarts of the character (physical health, mental strength, charisma), while Job Experience went directly into the skill tree or profession that was active (various sword skills for fighters, Focus powers for mages).

Other posters in this thread have better described my thoughts above.

 

Totally agree with this post. I am also hoping in a change towards an UO skill based system

 

I keep thinking of how in UO, having over a certain amount of Lumberjacking skill increased the damage output of the axe-type weapons in particular

My original assumption of SotA's skill advancement system was that of the use-for-skill based rather than kill/quest for point-based. Imo, the point-based progression is just too cut and dry for a game that is crossing the threshold of non-WoW-like gaming. However, if it is the case that this is the future of SotA, being point based in skill progression, then so be it. I will be just as happy playing the game.

Although, I try to come up with a new and wonderful alternative to the current type of progression, however the devs already know what works for the game. I trust them.

My question to you all would be how do we leverage the skill progression with the crafting skills, will we have our own crafting skill experience bar? I do not like that.

So, how would that work. I mean progressing with points in crafting, and then progressing with skills by use? This is the dilemma i'm seeing currently. Regardless of which side of the fence I or anyone is on, isn't there an elephant in the room when it comes to crafting and the expanding upon one specific set of skills that are meaningful in the way we achieve them? I mean I understand killing things to get experience and using the points to put into combat, and that is going to be amazing in this game, but how do we justify swinging an axe to gain points and then using those points to gain fire magic without the usage of any fire skill whatsoever. There would have to be something, some sort of trainer (the devs talked about trainers in the R11 postmortem) that would 'unlock' the tier of skills and teach the player the first spell so that way they are able to start gaining points in that tier or school.

in the same respect, how do we justify being a pure blacksmith and gaining experience points for an unrelated school of crafting???
(thoughts?)

 

Bots control your character, move it independantly, measure different variables and ingame conditions, have a logic tree, etc.

Macroes are simply a collective of multiple keystrokes, can be timed, mainly triggered on the fly by people actively playing, ie not bots.


Both have been destructive to games in the past, bots moreso but not by a whole lot. Macroes are a large part of pvp woes brought up by those who dont know how. Bots make the economy look and act broken, and really in alot of cases they destroyed economies.

What I always ask, and what i never understand, is why don't games just build a simple visual drag/drop type macro/script system right into the game? Its obvious to those that know how to make basic pvp scripts if theyre honest, pvp is faster paced and more control oriented when two evenly skilled players that use scripts are fighting. Ive always wished that this was more of a common knowledge thing because it really does make it unfair. Youll never ever make a game where pvp macroes dont exist or are not useful, so seriously just build it into the game and teach everyone how to use it, cuz if we're being honest it just makes games more intuitive.





To address the OP, yes I agree i wish we were getting something closer to use based skill gain because yes the game as it is now plays exactly as Garriot describes every other MMO, which is just discouraging. I dont think this is intended to be anything close to a finished system as its the first pass tho, and even if it is im staying for the other content like pvp and exploration knowing I only have to grind it out once. The game as is stil offers much more freedom than most others, and im happy about that atleast

 

The main reason I jumped with joy when this game was announced was that I thought that this would be somewhat of a UO2, so trying out R11 today was a massive disappointment. If they keep this system one might as well play any other mainstream MMO that has a much bigger budget and already finished.