Thoughts on PvP "Skills"

The idea of PvP skills has been tossed around a few times and to be honest, I don't care for it much. However, I recently had what I thought was an interesting idea so I thought I'd throw it out there and see what stuck (if anything).

Rather than actual PvP skills, what if instead you could customize your PvP experience through the skill interface?

This is just a rough concept but let's say you earn "PvP points" though PvP experience. You then spent those points in the same way as you do in skills.. but rather than skills you invest in say.. unlocking looting options. Instead of looting 1 item you spend a few points and now you can loot (and be looted for) 2 items.. spend a few more points and now it's 3.. up until say.. 10 levels of looting which unlocks "full loot".

In this scenario unlocking how much you can loot is a two way street. Between 2 PvPers the max that can be looted is based on whomever has the lowest setting. So if both looter and loser have invested in full loot.. than you get the full loot experience. If one is full loot and the other is set at 5 items.. than the most that can be looted is 5 items.

The idea here is using the existing skill system so that the more you PvP, the more PvP features you can unlock.. people new to PvP are relatively safe.. hardcore PvPers can increase their risk/reward for various features to suit their tastes..

The same thing can apply to say.. body part trophies or maybe adjust basic ransom rules somehow.

Actual PvP specific skills though I feel makes no real sense.. since people in the world wouldn't know the difference between a PC and NPC.. combat is combat no matter who you're fighting.

Being able to open yourself up to risk for a chance at reward though.. based on how much PvP you do.. gives everyone a chance to play the style of PvP you like while still remaining consensual.

Just a thought.. I'm not married to it.. love it.. bash it.. I just thought it was interesting enough to post.

 

Anything for the Full Loot ! I like !

 

I wanted to hate your idea upon initial scan, but it actually seems like a potentially smart compromise. Although I prefer full loot.

 

I like these ideas a lot. But every skill should have a counter skill, so I'd also like to see ways to make looting your character more difficult.

 

Sounds like a good way to get foot loot PVP without upsetting people.

 

The idea isn't really having skills.. it's just using the skill system to configure preferences. The only way to make it harder to loot someone is to turn it off completely really.

The real trick I think would be fleshing the idea out to include more than just loot/risk preferences.

On a little further reflection.. I wonder if you could actually include PvP related skills.. depending upon how limited interacting with NPCs is. My thought here relates to stealing.. or rather pickpocketing, but is that a skill that should be exclusive to players? hmm perhaps not.

Perhaps a Bounty Hunting "skill" branch.. the higher your level the more bounties are available to you.. or you could raise or lower your bounty.

Another possibility might involve options around death. Adjusting how movement speed as a ghost when killed by a player.. how long you stay a ghost or tweaking your death penalties.. or something like that.

I don't know I'm just throwing stuff out there. I'm sure there's probably a good way to flesh things out.

Heck you could even incorporate something to do with *cringe* cannibalism..

 

MANY years ago my wife pitched an idea to the Darkfall developers where loot could be HIDDEN or DISGUISED. This would limit the risk of being looted in a full loot environment. They liked the idea but like many things decided against it and made the game full loot.

When I read your ideas in the OP, I thought that was basically what we were talking about, although it sounded more like "active skills" than it did "actual skills". So whatever, I think the way to go would be to give people that choose to flag themselves as pvp the ability to put skill points (or pvp skill points, whatever the devs want) into skills that reduce the ability to be looted.

I also like the idea that there would be skills that allow players to loot more or find specific types of items (like reagents). There's really all kinds of applications for this. Hopefully the devs consider it.

 

As it is it's already difficult to really loot someone. The basic current thinking is you can only loot 1 item and that is forced to go through ransom so there's a good chance you won't even get it. The only way to make it any harder is to deny even the opportunity to loot.

If you don't want to be looted you wouldn't invest any extra points in looting as that is what would open you up to more risk.

 

I just like that its a new fresh idea, i think it has some holes that need fillin but they are fillable

 

Bowen,
Excellent thought/idea. I like the versatility this system brings, specially in semi-complex cases where there is a third party, or more, involved. Also, as far as applying looting points by level, it should be bound to the lifetime rank level of the avatar (similar to a DAoC ranking system but with a dual pool feature - weekly pool and lifetime pool). Let me briefly elaborate on what I mean:

1) The Weekly Pool, which obviously resets weekly, is the pool that contains the total amount of pvp-points earned during that week that allow avatars to qualify for skill-points that can be used in pvp-skills. It also acts as a filter by the system to select the top 10 pvpers of the realm for that week who will be displayed as stone statues (for the virtuous?) and/or a "top wanted list" (for those evil?) and located in a city (or cities, like in the case of a chaos vs order type of system where top 10 chaos avatars are displayed in Darkstarr's city and the same for LB's city as the champions of each faction) for everyone to see - I believe this is a really cool in-game pvp progression-recognition system (that adds to immersion as one wouldn't need to get out of the game to see who were the top avatars of that week in pvp) as it recognizes those who dare to fight/hunt each other to the death and excel at it. This concept besides being "good" or "evil" could also be applied to a faction system or an order vs chaos system. Moreover, the progression/recognition system could also (or mainly) be applied to the Lifetime pool or formal "ranking" system.
2) The Lifetime Pool, which holds the total amount of pvp-points earned during the lifetime of the avatar, allows the avatars to lvl in pvp ranks (say Rank1lvl1, then Rank1lvl2 all the way to Rank1lvl10,then Rank2lvl1 and so on until Rank10lvl10 - Each Rank has a title that can be displayed (something like, Rank1lvl1-10= "Warden", all the way to Rank10lvl1-10= "Warlord" or whatever related to the lore). It also unlocks the skills available to be selected (with each rank) with the skill-points earned from the weekly pool (assuming you had enough pvp-points to qualify for those skill-points) - the higher your rank/last week's performance (update to happen on a day of the week where all points earned that week are considered), the more points you earn for those skills (with a cap to control power), which can only be unlocked if one is active and effective enough during that week (either controlled by a set value system or population % comparison system). This controls and rewards the amount of pvp skills you can get during that week, which will further be added to your glyph deck). Also, take into account that pvp skills are limited to both usage (x amount of uses during that week) or time base (only available for a certain amount of time).

There is more detail on this but I will focus on your post as I don't have much time to type.

With your idea we have the following variables:

X=Avatar#1 set to up to full loot
Y=Avatar#2 set to up to 4 items
Z=Avatar#3 set to default (1 or 2 items at random (this is key)) - if 1 item drops, there is a always an option for ransom on that item. If 2 items drop, there is just ransom for 1 item, and another is earned by the victor (there is a potential for reward in the form of item but it is not guaranteed due to its randomness). This allows always a potential risk to lose 1 item in the event one dies but it is not set, meaning, you aren't guaranteed to be safe from losing items or hand held to keep all items every time you die as there is a potential to lose 1 in the event 2 items are dropped because ransom should only cover 1 item. Neither you are bound to lose 1 item all the time (if 2 items were to be dropped 100% of the time) as you can always ransom in the event you lost only 1 item).

Standard Cases:
X vs Y = X wins (up to 4 items to X - Even though X was set to full loot, Y was only willing to risk up to 4 items, hence, his tolerance was met and X gets up to this item number (remember, Y can ransom 1 of the 4 items he lost, which means that he really lost 3)
X vs Y = Y wins (up to 4 items to Y - Y gets all the items he was willing to risk and is a happy avatar, while X lost 4 items (likely ransoming 1) but didn't lose up to all his items, which makes him grateful - both players walk away with a potential positive experience)

Example of Edge Case:
X vs Y+Z (interaction) = Y+Z win ( in the edge case of Z only healing Y or CCing X and not dmging, just 1 or 2 items will be looted by Y as Z was involved or interacted in the conflict and perhaps not fully damaging X. If fully engaged, then it is a full 2v1, which still serves as a balanced tool for X who likely just got ganked). Same applies to other edge cases (with some exceptions) unless all parties agree to full loot (including Z). At that point, whoever gets ganked is going to have to replace all his gear (-1 for ransom) but again, that's the joy for some of us who, to the eyes of most, appear to be masochists. Finally, as far as loot distribution goes, the total value of loot items will be based on the mentioned conditions but distribution should be random (per eligible item) between the fully-engaged participants.

On the other hand, the system could be exploited if X knows he will lose a fight, he can bring a friend or bot set to default loot (1-2 items) and make him interact in the fight, setting him down from full loot to 1 or 2 items, hence, reducing his risk/loss greatly. However, his bot/friend would need to be naked and broke to not be exposed to the same fate (add mechanic here to control penalty to the potential naked/broke alt-bot/friend here).

Downside Case:
X vs Y + Z = X wins (X killed both Y & Z avatars, however, he was only able to get 1 or 2 items per avatar, which means that he could walk away with either 0, 1 or 2 items after ransom (assuming the avatars paid the ransom for 1 (each) of their items). This could prevent higher lvl ganking on two lower levels, which should not be too bad as the system aims for linear power progression. However, if it was a "fair" fight and the X totally outplayed Y & Z I feel that the reward is lacking a bit for X. Nevertheless, this is a very low penalty to pay for all the other cases that this system balances.

I believe that for this system to work, 1) ransom can only be applied to 1 item. 2) Default mode should always random between 1 and 2 drops to provide chance reward/incentive for loot, provide risk (not guaranteeing never losing an item as a default mode) and to lessen potential abuse of the mechanics.

Great post Bowen, loving it - I believe it has potential (similar in ways to other systems discussed but with a higher degree of flexibility) and can be refined further.

PS: All please remember, these are just ideas that will hopefully lead to more refined ones, which aim to introduce us to an amazing pvp system that not only targets looting (which is fundamental) but also other mechanics (similar to reputation and karma in UO) that could make pvp even more fun for everyone involved.

 

The idea sounds good.
But isnt it somewhat complicated?
On the other hand i can't come up with something better.

 

why would i be interested in setting my loot to 5 when everyone elses is set at 1 and 1 is all i get if i loot them? inversely, why would someone flag if everyone else can take 5 of there items yet they can only take 1 of theres. I like the idea but i don't think its going to work, i just cant see a way to balance it out.

 

First, because a lot of people want full loot.. and second because you missed the part about if you're set to 5 and they're set to 1.. that they can only loot 1.. not 5. It goes to the lowest number between looter and lootee. It's a risk vs reward thing that caters to whomever has the lower setting.. The reason you raise yours is for when you're fighting someone who also raised theirs.

If you're set to 5 and someone else is "full loot" and you kill them.. you get 5 items. If they kill you.. you can lose only 5. So if you're only fighting someone at the default of 1 item.. that's also all you are risking yourself.

 

It's not really any more complicated than any actual skill. A bit less so probably.. and the foundation for skill advancement is already in and something players will be accustomed to. This idea is just using the skill system mechanics as a means to customize your PvP experience.

 

thanks for the clarification Bowen, I'm back on board