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Please, please remove the levelling system for a skill based system

Discussion in 'Release 15 Feedback' started by ilcontegis, Mar 11, 2015.

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  1. ilcontegis

    ilcontegis Avatar

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    I already asked this some release ago, but after the implementation of the crafting system I feel that the immersion is totally broken. With the current implementation by gathering stones I can raise my log gathering or maybe in the future even my tailoring abilities. This is totally immersion breaking an illogic.
    Moreover I really don't feel that I am progressing in something as in theory I can raise my level using the easy-to-use skill and then move all the points to another skill which would be hard to raise.

    These are just few examples of how, in my humble opinion, the levelling system is not suitable for this game.

    Please developers, think about it, a change is still possible. Remove the levelling system and implement a skill based system similar to UO, where the avatar "grows" according to the actual actions he is doing.
     
  2. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    I don't think crafting and resource gathering are set in stone at this time. I do believe feed back from us can still impact and improve the system. I am hoping for more from it. Have you read the crafting threads. Many people are passionate about what they would like to see for the crafting in shrouds
     
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  3. ilcontegis

    ilcontegis Avatar

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    Thank you for your reply.
    I did read that thread, but my problem is with levels, I really don't like the way the game is going with this specific feature.
    Skills based system is much more suitable for a sandbox game, provides more immersion, it is more realistic, obliges the avatar to use the skills he wants to raise, etc..
     
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  4. Sold and gone

    Sold and gone Avatar

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    I am for anything that does not allow you to swap skills at a whim. I agree that skills should be learned and not trade-able for a different skill. One can not learn the sword then use the points to transfer to magic. Having a Hybrid approach to it would be the best in my opinion, where as you have levels. The levels would unlock the ability to add points to your skill pool, much as they are now, but not transferable, you would have to unlearn something then train again for the use of a different skill, but not lose your overall advancement level. My only reservation with skills is that they generally are based on repetition of use, and can easily be macro'd. So that is a negative.
     
  5. Alayth

    Alayth Avatar

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    Can't the same be said about gaining crafting levels? Repeated use -> EXP -> leveling up. Seems the same as Repeated use -> skill gain
     
  6. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    I will support the UO style of skill system only if Soul Stones are implemented...
     
  7. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Skills will not be so easily reassigned in future. They have mentioned that more than once.
     
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  8. Solstar

    Solstar Avatar

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    It's not hard for them to lock out skills you haven't actively skilled up yet.
     
  9. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    Eventually, all you'd need (from what we know) is to know where the right trainers are and have enough money. It might not be 'easy' at first but eventually everyone will have enough money and it will be easy.

    That might change IF every trainer required quests for respec. Which I seriously doubt.

    Here's the big problem with the current system. A major design goal is that everyone be able to explore all skills with one character. Everyone should be able to play without feeling the need for more than one character. Which means of course that every character should have the option of completely changing their skill sets.

    As there is no skill decay of any kind, this means the current system absolutely requires a respec option because we don't want everyone to master everything at once. Without any other way to lose skill, you MUST do respec.

    Now one of the main reasons given to us for the need of not letting people master every skill (which most wouldn't even try.. due to preferred play style, lack or time or just not being interested etc) is to create interdependency between players.. but respec tramples all over that so long as it's a viable option.

    Another idea that tramples all over wanting interdependency is awarding skill points for leveling up in other areas. There is also risk that doing this will give players who both adventure and craft a clear skill point advantage over those who do either one or other.

    Imo the whole notion of forcing dependencies is flawed to begin with. Simply making long term skill advancement take some effort is enough to do that. Not everyone wants to craft. Not everyone wants to be a mage or a fighter etc. People will interact in the market for no other reason (but not the only reason) than because it's easier and faster than doing everything yourself.

    In any case.. being one who likes to noodle out solutions.. I came up with a hybrid system awhile back.. since it seems appropriate.. it's shameless plug time!

    Hypothetical Skill Advancement

    I could've come up with a better title though. :p
     
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  10. Solstar

    Solstar Avatar

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    Active use, skill-based design FTW. I mean, it's really just granulated leveling anyway. Instead of generic XP, you get Sword XP, or Blacksmith XP, etc...

    Overall Levels (akin to D&D) are an outdated, legacy concept in video games. They are used, to great effect, in table top games to manage massive bookkeeping. There is no excuse in video games these days, when a system can be programmed once, and fine tuned as needed, to do all the calculations and bookkeeping for you.

    It's not hard to design a system that just tracks the overall XP to grant "Levels" that increase HP and dole out skill points.
     
  11. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    I don't care either way, i like both systems.
     
  12. SmokerKGB

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    I like the current system, and I know it's just a placeholder until everything else is added... You can harvest easy nodes for small exp points, and if you want to go faster, then you have the option of harvesting higher nodes for much more exp points, plus the higher nodes are in a more dangerous area... As far as swapping skills out, without the advantage of having multiple chr slots this is a wonderful compromise... Spending Gold to create a new chr, without having to create a new chr...
     
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  13. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    Well that's fine if you don't care about RP or want to be completely independent without having to do the work to actually earn each skill individually. Personally I think it also contradicts certain design goals.
     
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  14. Elirion

    Elirion Avatar

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    I agree. I would prefer a skill based leveling system especially in crafting and gathering. If you use a skill/ability/item/weapon you slowly gain skill/exp in that skill/ability/item/weapon.
     
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  15. TEK

    TEK Legend of the Hearth

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    I always wondered if the level system was a leftover from the original idea of SotA just being a Facebook game. It is far too late for that switch it seems. However, not only do I prefer and wish there was a use base skill system but the Rate Over Time use skill system from the Siege Perilous shard in UO really was great in that it just made you play the game instead of grinding so much.

    http://www.uoguide.com/Rate_Over_Time
     
  16. SmokerKGB

    SmokerKGB Avatar

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    Sorry Bowen, you're really starting to confuse me... What does all this have to do with RP? RP is what you make of it, personally. I play a Warrior using Blades, which requires Tactics and High Str, Dex... I don't use the "deck" system because I don't prefer too, so my deck is locked... What does any of this have to do with RP? or is it all about "ego" or "bragging" rights maybe?

    Are you saying that I don't "work" for my skills, that somehow they're just handed to me, like magic (for free)? I couldn't tell you how many critters I have killed to "earn" every point I have, I didn't buy a single one. Now they're giving me points for crafting when I harvest the hide or garlic or wood, are you trying to say I don't "earn" these points through Experience? I have to chop, dig or cut every single item I get, the beauty of this system is now I need to "choose" where I use my points, and IF I choose to try another path, I have the "Freedom" to change. A skills based system like in UO doesn't give you this kind of freedom to choose, once you're a swordsman, you're stuck... In UO all you needed to do was get 2 daggers, a mage to heal and a guildi to duke it out with for a couple of hours and Boom, you were GM swords, easy peezy... No fuss, no muss, no sweat...

    What design goals are contradicted? They have always said "you will not have enough points to be GOOD at everything, you will only have 1 chr", and when crafting events come in r16, you'll know what that means... But I can tell you now, you won't have any points to have Mining AND Blacksmithing AND Smelting to be GOOD at them all because the points you have now, is the total you're getting... So you're going to have to choose which ones to drop, and what path you want to go on... Because there's no more points, you've already earned them all, they won't be giving you any additional point, so get used to it...

    I like that concept and from what I've seen it's working just fine, as planned...
     
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  17. Rabum Alal

    Rabum Alal Avatar

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    From a game-immersion standpoint, the current system kills a lot of the believability of the character I'm playing in the game. He is, "do everything man," so to speak.
     
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  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    One design goal is a system that creates player inter-dependency. Respec contradicts that goal to the point where it may as not even exist.

    You spend a lot of energy earning your carpentry skill.. on wait.. you want a custom uber sword.. spend some money.. run around to some trainers.. suddenly you're a master blacksmith even though you've never touched a forge before. That to me is not earning your blacksmithing skill.. you earned carpentry.. One ought not simply translate into another just because you threw some money at it.

    You could take all your stats.. your swords skills and all that.. spend some money and suddenly you're a master mage when yesterday you couldn't even cast a cantrip. Done with that? Spend some more money and suddenly you have your original skills again.

    Now if you had read my post I linked to, you would know I'm not suggesting a system "like UO".. and speaking of that you just totally contradicted yourself when you said a system like that doesn't give you the freedom to change and in the next breath described how easily it was to change in the very system.

    What I proposed still allows you to change if that's what you want to do and like UO you would just need to spend some time doing it. You would be earning each skill.. not earning one set and then just trading it for another with some money.

    Your last argument seems to forget respec exists entirely.. yeah.. you have to choose which skills to master.. but then you save up some money and suddenly you have full access to another set of skills. With enough money and running around to different trainers, you basically CAN master literally everyone with one character.. just not at the same time... but having one set of crafting skills might as well give you all crafting skills. All you need to do is respec. Miner today, lumberjack the next. Why choose just one when you can respec without any additional work. All you need is money and after awhile most of us will have plenty of that.
     
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  19. ilcontegis

    ilcontegis Avatar

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    Trainers in my opinion are totally useless and also immersion breaking.
    How can I learn all my skills in 2 minutes?

    I should get skills points for the skill I am using, and unlock abilities at certain specific targets.
    Eg. Sword at 30 unlocks abilities 1,23; Sword at 50 unlocks abilities 4,5,6 and so on.

    That's a great model to follow in my opinion, which I feel it's still applicable to the actual model.
     
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  20. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    In usage based skill systems, there is no slowly. Within days there will be guides as to how to max out any skill within the shortest amount of time, preferably while AFK. I don't mind this in a single player game as by over grinding you are only damaging your own enjoyment. The problem in MMOs is that I am expected to interact with those ubergrinders and I will be at a significant disadvantage against them in any PVP scenario and I'll be lucky to collect the crumbs they leave behind in the economic arena. Joining a party as a healer... "lol, healers a noob, go spam heal on the drunk in owl's head for a few weeks before trying to party in this dungeon"

    No thanks. I'd prefer a point based system with points granted for quest/mission completion (hell, let players transfer points to other players as payment if you want pure crafters to be viable). If we must have XP, multiply all quest/mission completion rewards by 10 and divide monster, gathering and crafting rewards by 10.
     
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