Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

I've been planning MMORPGs since UO in 1997, I will give the cycling deck thing 83 points for originality and 17 points for being the most annoying unplayable thing I have ever seen in a game. Whats the point of this if we still have to wait for the cool down period anyways? What's worse is the fact that you are penalized and have to wase skill points to have a regular functioning hotbar.....common this is ridiculus!!! I know we're still in Pre-Alpha and a lot of things need work but if you plan on keeping this random deck thing in game then at least don't penalize ppl for not using it. As was stated above reward ppl for using this don't penalize. I don't pvp much anymore but I do think this system adds a great amount of luck based stratagy to combat which could work out to be really cool, I just really dislike this for PvE play.

Ok, let me start by retracting 90% of what I said above. I was tired, and really frustrated and annoyed dealing with the deck building system for the first time, which does need some major work. Also what didn't help I didn't have many glyphs to fill my deck with so I had a ton of slugs and that frustrated me too. Well after leveling up a bit and learning how to use the system a bit more, I think it's pretty cool. I did notice the cycling time of the glyphs was way faster than their locked cool-down rate. Also it makes combat more exciting when I can pull of a sweet combo 2x or 3x in a row depending on how the cards come up. Also before I locked my heath pot on my hot-bar it was pretty exciting when my health would get low and I'd be praying for that heal pot to come up soon or I'd have to flee combat. So to sum it up I think it's a pretty cool system, that yes, needs some refinement especially with the deck builder interface. But over all "thumbs up".

Thanks,
Palendir

 

Haven't had a chance to try it out. Been on the phone. I'll get back to you.

 

The Future of the combat system is you wont even be able to use a random deck till later levels, you will start out locked. It will gradually introduce you to using random glyphs and building out a deck. Along with in-game guides to help. It should feel more like you get the benefit of no cooldown on skills by using it, and reduced focus cost. They intend to balance it so you aren't hurt by sticking with the locked.

What it really boils down to with the random glyph system is You manage your own cooldowns. The number of cards and your draw speed determine your cooldown. If I have a 20 glyph deck, have 5 of 4 different skills, with a 1 second draw speed, I effectively have a cool down of 1sec-15 seconds, with the majority of cooldowns being 4 seconds. (and 15 being very rare)... and say I throw in 1 skill (usually a summon) that effectively gives me a 20 second cooldown on that skill. I get to choose my cooldowns on my skills. I think that is the awesome part of it.

Changing up the UI, maybe making skills land in certain slots will help with some of the complaints of the system. I don't expect the deck system to go anywhere, so discussing improvements on it is far more valuable than attacking it. However, the negatives, the things that need improvement should be discussed and we should discuss ways to improve those negatives.

I'm not looking for combat simulation. I have no desire at all to play any combat simulators. I enjoy games that have tactics and strategy -This I believe is more prevalent in the deck system than in any MMO I've played because before combat I plan on how I want to engage in combat via managing my cooldowns and combining certain skills to be effective. Rather than the normal system of Here is your level, this is the skills you get, this is what numbers to press to maximize your damage or healing or defense. (There are only a couple of games that even attempt to simulate real combat -It just isn't much fun)


-I voted yes to this poll even though I don't believe yes is correct. Combat isn't great in it's current form, the Dev's aren't leaving it in it's current form. The only reason I voted yes is because this poll was intentionally made to get No votes, as many as possible, so the OP could use it as ammo for his attack on the system. There are plenty of tactful people who don't like the random card system that are great community members and don't feel the need to go down to the level of the OP and a few others in this thread. They give constructive feedback, they don't use hyperbole to make their points. They say what they don't like about it and usually give tips on how to fix it. Many of those people believe scrapping the entire system is the only fix for some of those issues. And that's fine. But I like to discuss alternatives to alleviate those issues. OP and a few others in this thread have no desire for a constructive feedback and only want to exaggerate issues and complain about other aspects they aren't happy with to claim this game wont be successful and then suggesting it is solely because of combat that it wont be successful.

And I'm getting tired of that it isn't useful for the community and it isn't useful to the betterment of this game.

 

This idea is a nefarious plot to blow up the forum by coming up with an idea that everybody hates

1. Keep all the physical combat & armor defense skills in a bottom row, all locked & no penalties.
2. Keep all magical abilities in an upper row, this works like the current glyph system. You can lock a slot but there is a focus penalty.

Physical moves are inherently more predictable, hence the system in #1. The only time they become random is when you"re drugged ,poisoned, under some illusion spell etc etc etc.

Magic is inherently unpredictable, hence all the sigils /circles/incantations to bind them to stability. Chaos magic can disrupt it even more. This row works exactly like the current system.

Combos are easier with this system, you just have to watch the magic row (or maybe the magical glyph flashes when it has a match in the physical row).

People can choose to have a completely predictable set of (physical) skills. Who do mages fear most ? Thieves, who can still elect to have a small set of magical skills to backup their roguery.

The flaw of this system is when an almost pure magic user tries it - but I"m confident someone out there will come up with a better idea. The bald truth is, I don't think the card system is really going away entirely. So here's a first try at a hybrid method of combat.

 

Couple points on polls on this system, because you keep attacking them.

1) Both choices are completely ridiculous. I know this is the internet, but the attack on the poll itself is what I'm tiered of. Are people really not capable of allowing a little humor in the poll? Do you like the system Yes/No? That's all this is. If you think that something that simple is designed to garner as many 'nays' as possible it means you believe a straight forward question is not going to result favorably in the systems favor.

2) Here:

http://www.custominsight.com/articles/random-sample-calculator.asp

Is a fun calculator for survey size. We have enough people to be <10% margin of error with 90-95% confidence. Would I bet my life on those odds? No. But I'd bet good money. On top of that, the dev team and Garriott are betting their jobs and legacy against the numbers. That seems particularly fool hardy to me, unless they know something we don't.

-

To often in the debate it comes down to people attacking the others intentions, or tone. You have no idea how I wrote that last sentence. Raging? Depressed? Calm? You simply don't know. Perhaps instead of villainizing the other sides, we could just take it at face value? Give them the benefit of the doubt that it's not some grand conspiracy, and that they were straight forward because they don't feel they need to game the system.

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but the fact is to answer this poll literally, everyone would have to answer, 'no', or not answer at all; so the only yes answers are those who choose not to take it literally.. That's the point Mishri was making, and it's a valid point.

 

I"m saying two things:

1) The sample size is better than you'd think. It does allow some degree of accuracy over what our forum-goers/evangelists want. Not perfect, but not exactly dismiss able out of hand either.

2) I'm saying no one in their right mind would take it literally. The choices themselves are tongue in cheek. And the title is "Card combat good or bad?" title sets the context of the whole thing. In fact the literalness that is expected here has dragged the whole conversation down into a battle of semantics and phrasing rather than dealing with the heart of the debate. Almost anyone reading that know's what's being asked here from the title. Do you like the idea of cards? Or would you prefer something else? Is it not panning out the way you expected? etc. Making every comment be an exercise in perfect word choice means we can't have a conversation. At some point, I expect you to be able to use your own context and understanding to contribute to the conversation.

It becomes more 'gotcha' and less about the core message. If you feel the need for nuance, that's what the comments are for. While I commend Mishri for saying "I'm voting yes, because while I don't think it's currently where I want it, I like the core concept", the fact that he can make that distinction means we don't need to get so nit picky about the results when we don't like them.

 

I voted 5 times so far in this poll lol

 

I'd understand people complaining if the poll choices were "Yes. I'm not too bright of a person and I like this terrible system" or "No. I'm a good looking person, respected by my peers and I know a game breaking system when I see one."

I don't believe "Best thing since sliced bread" and "sucks more than a vacuum" sways people on the fence to vote one way or the other.

 

Yeah I bet that really helps out righties. You can imagine my disappointment when I bought a G13 a while back to discover that the thumbstick didn't detach :\

This has been working for me, however:
Num1: Card 1
Num2: Card 2
Num3: Card 3
Num4: Card 4
Num5: Card 5
Num6: Card 6
Num7: Card 7
Num8: Card 8 (locked)
Num9: Card 9 (locked)
Num+: card 0 (locked)
Num0: Start Combo
Num .: Target Next
PgDn: Jump
Arrow Keys: U/D/L/R although I've been using the mouse mostly with this setup.

 

SO... I hope Chris, Richard and Starr have been paying attention to these threads lately!

 

Actually, My issue is more of the "In it's current state" simply because in it's current state-combat needs a lot of work, it isn't great. I don't believe the issue is with the card system in my case, it's with the lack of other things to do in combat besides using skills. Along with some other effects/animations that can make the combat feel more reactive to what you (and your opponent) do. Locked skills need work as well, and balancing against the random system.

 

Obsidian Eye brings up a problem with using one of those calculators. People can vote multiple times in this poll. What degree of accuracy is there now? It's nearly worthless once you introduce that factor. A better indicator might be the number of people defending/attacking the system. Which, as has been since Chris first announced it, is fairly split. handful love it, handful hate it, a lot don't seem too passionate one way or the other. After reading the steam reviews very few listed the combat system as a reason they gave it a thumbs down.

 

I'd be curious how he did that. Does he have several accounts? How many people on the other side did the same thing? How often do we need to have this poll showing it go this direction? How many of the positive reviews are there from people who'd rather see the system go, but will hold their nose and take it?

How many of the old crowd that argued against it have left? vjek, fireangel, silvas? Others I've forgotten? Others that have come and gone since then? There's something to be said for the detractors are more likely to post, but they're also more likely to leave.

That's what the margin of error is supposed to account for. Anomalies, double counts, etc.

 

fireangel didn't leave because of the combat system. Unless you have some information she didn't post publicly. vjek from the beginning said he'd leave if they stuck with it.. he never even wanted to give it a chance.


and we have no idea which way multi-votes might have swayed this poll.. yes, most likely using multiple accounts, many people have multiple accounts.

The people who don't like the random combat need a viable locked system that they can live with and be competitive with. They need combat do be more engaging - FF14 ARR people say they enjoy that combat, and all they did was added little red spots where you shouldn't stand or you'll take massive damage. Otherwise it's the classic hotbar system. We can have both.. and it could be that most people in the future will run the standard locked setup, as the random is too distracting. I don't have a problem with it though and I'd likely continue using random, even if there were things I have to watch for in the battlefield. First thing they should likely focus on is making locked skills more balanced with a random setup, then introduce new elements to combat so people don't feel handicapped if they need to use locked skills (or mostly locked skills) with new elements in combat. I'd also be for them making locked slots free and can be added at anytime even without a trainer, and more of them. - This should give people the freedom to play combat how they want to play it. Right now they are thinking about combat focusing on the random, which is fine, it's a fun/new type of combat. and finding ways to improve that is still important. But, they should also not make people feel forced into it anymore, and consider the locked system may be more popular and should focus on making that good/fun.

 

I do. Her and I talked about it a lot, and it's part of why I mentioned her directly in my proposal back in the day.

You don't get it. That doesn't matter. The reason he left is card combat. If it's so unappealing people won't even give it a try, that's not a good thing for the game.

And unless you have some reason to believe one side would have voted more than the other, it's safe to say the margin of error is the same in both directions, negating it out.

The rest of this is directly related to debating the combat system directly. I've promised Chris Spears I wouldn't directly do that (for now). But I will talk about how we talk about it, because it's a genuinely toxic conversation for this game at this point.

 

So we have to buy a new piece of equipment or we are at a disadvantage using the deck system?

<Hey you people who sponsored us please buy this equipment because they sponsored us and you should support them because they support the game you support.>

No thanks.

If I buy this I don't want it because it is the only way to use the card system in shroud of the avatar. Convenience is good, but fix the dang combat system and don't just say here buy this product because it is the only way to make our combat system actually work. That is like saying, yeah the combat system is broken, but this is the missing link.

 

Okay so I honestly don't know all the conversations you guys have had bout this discussion, But what I have been noticing is the issue isn't so much with the Deck it's more with the PVP and the impact the Deck has on it. I have thorough of ideas to fixing it but I feel like I over looked the actually issue being the one I just mention. So what if (still just tossing ideas) instead of re thinking the system just block it from the PVP Aspect of the game so while flagged PVP or in PVP zone and entering combat all players join in on a locked deck. When the PVP player goes in to a dungeon they can use the random Deck and PVE players can just get to pick what they want.

I know some PVP players like using the Deck for PVP and will be sad to let it go, and in all honesty its one of my favorite combat systems to date. I don't want to see the random system go but i do want to look in to the Fun in PVP and try and keep it well balanced (stuff the classes lol every man for him self there) in such away that older slower players ain't disadvantaged to the younger faster players but stand a chance.

Again just still trying to work on the middle ground because above is just a stalemate.

 

For my mind PVP could be removed completely from the game and it would be a BETTER game, I am still against this stupid deck system for lots of reasons.

Forces you to look at the hotbar like your playing Guitar Hero instead of the game
Stops the Devs from making truly different spells/skills because they all have to be viable for whatever comes up in the deck
Makes no sense from a real world perspective, no solder forgets how to use a gun
breaks the whole idea of an unobtrusive UI

 

I'm a PvPer at heart, but since I've backed, my expectations for this game went from "Can't wait to get involved in POTs/Guild wars and RPvP" to "I just want to play this by myself." So as much as I'd love the PvP to benefit from a combat change, just to stomach installing and playing this game on my own in single-player requires a change to combat.

I like what you suggested about balancing UIs for PvP, but we shouldn't be making concessions. They can make a good combat system meshing both hotbars, it just requires moving away from this touchpad deck system they have in mind and making it PC friendly.