Combat Redux

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Gypsy Lou, Apr 28, 2015.

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  1. Gypsy Lou

    Gypsy Lou Avatar

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    From a Chris post regarding Combat:

    Combat FAQ:

    If the deck system ends up not being fun, what will you do with combat?
    If the deck system ends up not being fun because it is too chaotic or stressful, we’ll probably try out new options that are a mix of the deck system and the more traditional combat systems found in RPGs. We’ll probably also allow people to make all skills noble but fixed. If no one likes it still we can just rebalance the spells by making the combo spells more expensive to cast in terms of focus and reagents and fall back to a more traditional system. In other words, we can always just switch to the usual system without much work but we’d rather start off by trying to innovate, rather than copy.

    *********************
    The company was formed in 2009 and the game was publicly announced in 2013. We know now that release will probably not occur this year, but they're still hewing toward the turn of the year, or early 2016. That means that seven years will have elapsed from the time the company was founded until release, which is about 8-10 months out from now. Looked at that way, we are probably somewhere north of 70% through the cycle, possibly higher.

    So when will the decision be made and how? There is much to love about this game. The artwork, the scope of the world, the community, the immersion and utter lack of hand holding. The housing. I still can't believe how much money people have spent on housing. I have been agonizing over my $500 investment and then I talk to so many players who have dropped THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS into this game. The community support is phenomenal and, frankly, makes me want to contribute more and be part of this phenomenon.

    So I try and use my imagination as I roam around the world trying out the various systems. But no matter how much patience and imagination I use, I cannot foresee combat ever becoming fun in its current incarnation. If I have to kill one more persistent, resurrecting skeleton, I think I will explode. I understand this is a work in progress, but works in progress should start out being somewhere north of tedious and un-fun, even if just barely so, and eventually make their way toward fun and engaging. Combat currently is neither and I've yet to see any indication of why it will get better. A bigger bestiary is promised. More content is promised. Player Owned Towns are coming. More balancing is happening. Great, but I see nothing that tells me combat is going to change in any fundamental way that will make it more fun.

    Randomness is hard to enjoy. On the one hand, it takes away control. On the other hand, it creates spontaneity and a dynamic tactical environment which *could* be exciting, if only I could actually immerse myself in it. But instead I have to keep my eyes on my hotbar to see what comes up and hope that my fingers will be able to quickly differentiate between 4 and 5 on that hotbar in my peripheral vision. No point watching for subtle mob cues to anticipate what they are going to do, can't take my eyes off that hotbar. This is worse than being a healbot in EQ, forced to stand in a corner and watch player health bars, spamming heals at them without any regard for what is going on in the battle.

    Combat is not fun. It's very un-fun. For those of you who believe it will get better, Halilieuiah! Please tell me why you think so because I want to believe. For those of you who would remind me that the game is more than just combat, I agree. It is so much more. But it is all anchored around combat. Combat produces many of the resources necessary to drive the player economy. What will be the primary crafted goods? Weapons and Armors. For combat. Combat cannot be relegated to an incidental and unnecessary function. It will be one of the primary features by which the game is measured in the marketplace.

    Btw, one of the players who spent $5,000 for his castle stated to me in game that "combat sucks". My mind boggles at this incongruity.

    Thank the gods this is a thinking community that actually cares about communication and doesn't demand a TL;DR at the beginning of a post like this. I paid to be a backer and to have the privilege to voice my opinion, so please accept it as just that. I am not a game designer, so I don't have the chops to theorize solutions. I can't say it any better. Combat is not fun. When will the decision be made to "try out new options"? Is it not enough that the current forum poll shows more people dislike it than like it? Even if you consider the poll "unscientific" or "anecdotal", is this much division really acceptable on such a fundamental game system?
     
  2. Amethyst

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    The SoTA team are experienced experts, so I think they created a new random deck in order to experiment and give themselves and us a chance to utilize many combat trees and spells. For example, we can switch form warrior to mage in a single release. This may not be permanent but it does allow us to experiment and reach a higher level so they can find bugs at the higher combat tiers and in various combat trees. I just wish they would take the nerf (focus warm-up) off the fixed deck and allow combos. They must have a good reason for not doing it. The fixed deck was fine last year. Maybe they are waiting to come up with something unique like they have done before. I think they would be innovative if they could get the AI characters to move more like a human. They did this with the arrow-shooting elves in Greymark. I love it! It is like fighting a human because every time I try to attack them they back up to shoot an arrow at me. They need to do more of this instead of making the deck more challenging.

    I am not a PVPer but in release 17 I am going to try a fixed deck. It will be harder but I will be able to keep my eyes on the screen and enjoy the eye-candy instead of looking at the glyphs. I think the glyphs look great and another gaming company should steal that graphic artist from us, but I don't want to look at them when I fight. I will just put up with being a weaker fighter and move behind rocks and trees a lot until I am healed and regain focus.
     
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  3. Logain

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    That is hardly relevant though, since the game only got funded (and even more importantly developed and designed) roughly 2 years ago (Apr 8 2013) and the first introduction on combat is less than a year ago (R5). R18 and R19 are about to see a little focus no combat again, but I don't think you can really judge the system before it's function complete. Only THEN there can be a decision to consider, but hardly before.

    We have yet to see various skills, the complete cover system, a couple of passes (and reworks) of the AI, a magnitude more combos, buffs/potions, specific crafted equipment, ... I don't know if the system is going to be good, I'm not in possession of a crystal-ball, but I can be rather sure that it's going to be drastically different from the bare bone skeleton we see now.

    That is one such prime example of what should change. Magery is going to put an end to skeletons in upcoming release, whereas (normal) melee weapons will only manage to knock them down temporarily. Go get yourself a nice Phoenix and some Sun magic and skeletons should no longer be able to tease you in R1x. Some are going to hate it, others (like me) are going to love that there is a meaningful difference between magic and melee (as long as melee does get benefits as well).
     
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  4. Gypsy Lou

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    Ok, granted my numbers may not reflect actual development time. No matter how long the game has been in actual coding, we can agree that the end is nearing and if they are serious about "trying other options", there isn't a lot of time left for those options to be designed, built and evaluated. I do understand your point that there is much to come and that combat will evolve, but consider each of the things that you've described and how each will integrate with the current system:

    1) Cover. I like the addition in games that use it, it requires more dexterity and additional situational awareness, but it can make a real difference with those archers, probably not with Ghosts;
    2) Reworks of the AI. Another welcome change that adds some needed diversity, will go well with the expanded bestiary we've been promised;
    3) A magnitude more combos. I haven't read about this one but this is good news and is the first thing in your list that actually deals with the problems of card combat, this could make some difference;
    4) Buffs, potions, specific crafted equipment. Again, always welcome, but you can see how this also has no impact on problems associated with card combat.

    If your point is that combat is going to become more interesting and diverse, I can see that and I accept it. Whether it's enough to overcome the problems with card combat is hard to see because it seems like you're saying that it will be sufficiently more fun to overcome the other problems. That may be true, a large part of what I don't like about combat is the boring and monotonous flavor to it right now. But I've already factored that into my opinion up there in my message where I say that I try to use my imagination about what's to come and how combat is going to evolve. But it sounds like it's going to evolve with the current card combat system, and as open minded as I'm trying to be, I have a real hard time seeing any of these changes overcoming the significant problems with this basic system.

    I know this sounds like just another complaint, but I don't think I've ever gone into a game forum and complained about a fundamental system like this with only 8-10 months till release. I know how unrealistic it is to think that the developers are going to toss something out this central to the game and start over. I'm not a dreamer. But consider the following:

    1) This is a forum for a pre-alpha game in which the developers have actively solicited our feedback and welcomed it;
    2) I assume they are all big boys and girls who are proud of their innovations but not married to them and appreciate honest criticism;
    3) I assume they all want a game that most players agree is fun to play;
    4) They posted in this same forum that "If it's not fun, we will consider trying other options";
    5) Virtually every player I know dislikes combat as it is and is relying on changes to come and save it;
    6) The one poll in this forum on this very topic: "Card Combat", as of this writing has 60% opposed to the system, and only 40% in favor. In elective politics, that's called a "landslide".

    In light of the above, I think this discussion is both timely and appropriate. Don't you?
     
  5. Drocis the Devious

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    I think combat will eventually get better because too many people dislike the current state of it. The devs have shown that once something like that reaches a boiling point, they change it.

    Combat needs the ability to block and counter. There's also the problem of levels having too much meaning, and constantly looking down at your glyphs instead of the fight.

    My biggest concern about changing the combat system though, is that they will simply give people the same old horrible system that is in just about every other game and will stop trying to innovate. If that happens, I'm probably going to avoid combat and just be a philosopher in the game.
     
  6. Xi_

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    I've been thinking about this as well and keep flip flopping, I've played some complex games with simple combat systems and enjoyed imensely, i think alot of it would have to do with implimentation.
     
  7. Logain

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    Well, 7-8 month till we reach a point where we can evaluate (since we should be beta by then). After that say 1-2 month evaluation and then there's always another bit of time to change the system.

    The 'bad' part about ghosts is life drain. Which, if it can be stopped by cover (being a 'beam' of sorts) would make a massive impact. It has a considerable impact on the card system as well, since it can force your opponent to move (resulting in the loss of the 'stand still buff').

    If I'd buy an augmented plate armour with reduced focus cost from Wanderlust in Release 20 and used a potion that grants me faster cooldowns, would that not influence the use of a locked deck more than it would that of a random deck?

    It can not overcome any of the quarrels you have with the random deck (and shouldn't), but it can make the locked deck a viable alternative. It's the same old problem with cars. Some people like racing cars, some like offroad cars, some like a mixture. Each has situations where it can be the best possible solution, each has situations where it can be the worst. Yet all three keep getting sold. As long as people can choose and non is always better than the others, why not keep a choice? The goal (and question) should be, how do you balance locked and random and hybrid deck? What are the benefits of each and how much 'are they worth' in a specific situation?

    I have no idea. I'd say Chris/DarkStarr might be able to answer this. I doubt the discussion hurts though, as long as it gets to the point. Which hasn't even been the case yet. How much are the benefits of locked/hybrid/random mode worth in a specific situation? That should be the discussion by now ;)

    I (and likely a massive amount of people) have stopped voting on these. My voice would be in favour of the random deck mode, but I'm not going to vote on the billionth poll nobody ever cares about :p
     
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  8. Hraw

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    I also am not interested in voting on another forum poll.

    And for what it's worth, the more I play, the more I like the combat. And the upcoming changes sound fun as well.

    Also, the more I try, the more I can do well in a fight and not keep my eyes fixed on the random hotbar. It's similar to other mmos where I had to keep watching buffs/debuffs in a hard fight.

    I get that some people don't like the combat. What is interesting is that every post like this brings up so many different reasons. It's not all just hate about the randomness. I only hope Portalarium doesn't give in and just give us the same old boring type system we have in so many other titles - I love that they are being bold with something truly new (we haven't even seen it all yet).
     
  9. Gypsy Lou

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    There are other ways to innovate. I have faith that they can come up with something that is innovative and that a lot of people like.

    Don't give up on them so easily.
     
  10. Zylo

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    I completely agree with everything the Original Poster said.... I feel exactly the same.. I am going crazy with this combat system, I want to smash my face against the wall, it is that agonizing....

    We need some action! This is NOT even close? Where are the people that are liking this combat? No one does?!

    Games that HAD good combat: ...and what I mean by this, is that it was VERY fun to PvP against other players/AI in the game... It felt like you were in control, the combat was dynamic and engaging. It was fun as hell and you could totally out skill and or outsmart your opponent...

    Street Fighter: SNES
    Mortal Kombat: Sega Genesis
    Mario Kart: SNES & N64
    Tekken: Playstation
    Descent: PC
    Quake, Doom: PC
    Call of Duty: Playstation
    Goldeneye: N64
    God of War Ascension (Multiplayer): Playstation

    All these games are very different but each of them had great combat systems... They were all full of action and a lot of fun.. They all took some talent and ability to be the best and none of them required just staring at hot keys waiting for the timers..... You are focused on the combat and what is happening on the screen...

    God of War PvP Gameplay Just watch the first 3 or 4 minute of this.... You can clearly see that there is no "auto target", players are required to actually direct and control their attacks and or defences.... The player making this video is absolutely owning these two other players...

    Shroud of the Avatar Combat You'll have to forward ahead to 5:50 in this video, but honestly, watch this combat?!?! How BORING is this? You can't even begin to compare... It's not even close.. This is horrendous for those of us who enjoy battling and duelling other players in game... Can you see how vastly underwhelming this is? Is this video really what combat is in an MMO these days? This is the best we've got? He's swiping across the screen casually with his mouse during combat to explain the video as he goes... You could NOT do that in ANY of the games I listed above and they were all VASTLY different than each other... The fact that this is an MMO shouldn't mean BORING SLOW, hotbar staring random chance to hit combat.

    It's just an example of a game with fantastic and engaging combat... I played UO because 17 years ago, that was really fun MMO Combat... Today, the combat in Shroud is boring.

    I'd love to see this type of God of War Arena combat... How amazing would it be to have a Giant Coliseum in the game with PvP Gladiators and spectators at massive events featuring the best players in the game? With a ladder and ranking system?

    Can we not innovate and find new and better ways of doing things, not stale and stagnant? This game needs some action.. It is totally lacking in this game completely...

    Watch the combat video for Shroud of the Avatar I linked:

    Combat in Shroud feels like a spectator sport.... It's not like being better would allow you to defeat the enemies? That video was hard to watch... Like watching paint dry.
     
  11. Hraw

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    I like the combat. Virtually everyone I've met in game likes the combat and only a couple said just that it was OK. Quite a few very frequent posters on this forum seem to not like it, that is clear. But I understand in the steam reviews, only something like 30% are even mentioning combat and not all of that is negative.

    None of the games you mentioned were massively multiplayer, nor could support more than a few players per server when compared to mmo type games. It doesn't sound to me like you are wanting SotA to be a massively multiplayer game at all based on your feedback.

    We need to have realistic expectations here. Read the 80.lv review of Richard Garriott that came out a few days ago. Does it in any way even a little sound like there is maybe the slightest possibility of a combat overhaul coming? Here's a quote:
    He talks about creating maps and stuff. Starting over on a completely different combat system doesn't even sound like a remote possibility. They seem to really be focusing on moving into alpha stage where all systems are in the game. A long delay and hope that all the naysayers will like a whole new system doesn't seem reasonable to me - nor does just another boring old wow-clone combat system.
     
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  12. Zylo

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    I guess that means I won't be playing Shroud of the Avatar.... It's immensely boring.
     
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  13. Freeman

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    I literally walked away from the forums for a year because of combat, and that was after bashing it for a year before hand. I was told at the time the things I said "weren't true" or we just needed to "wait until R 9...10...11...", Others I knew walked away with me. I told Chris Spears that if Garriott came out and said "Combat is OK" I'd have to give up. I gave money so that Garriott could make a game free of EA, free of NC Soft, and free of anyone making him create something he didn't want to. I saw what looked like part of his team trying to do the same. Gun to my head, I don't believe this is in his spirit, but I have to take him at his word. So I left. I came back because I saw people like Dewderonomy trying to pick up the torch and continue fighting. It brought some of the people that once encouraged me to fight, to encourage me to come back and try to fight some more.

    I will not attack the combat system directly publicly. I made that promise, and my old posts remain for those who want to read them. I will talk about the conversation about combat. About the fact that we're still making the same observations, same critiques, and same complaints that were being levied two years ago. I think it is a fair question to ask "what is the benchmark?" I gave mine... what's the turning point for the Devs? What is the drop dead point? What would make them turn back? We need specifics. If they don't have them, they need to get them. Metrics are essential for project management. And on their budget, good management is the difference between success and failure.

    People who don't like the system get told that the devs won't respond to ultimatums, and I think they don't understand what that is. An ultimatum is: "a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." Saying combat is driving us out, isn't an ultimatum. It isn't retaliation, they already have my money. It isn't even a break down in relations. Those are already broken for us. We feel unheard, and unwelcome. It's more of a notification. We care enough to tell you that you're losing your audience, which is more than most people will do. Yes, more people complain than compliment, but even more just leave than complain.

    I would love to be wrong. I would love Wanderlust to be wrong. I really would. I'd love some magic moment to happen that makes combat seem like something I could get others excited about, and make them want to play too. I look at some people making comparisons of the random combat to 'the Secret World' and thinking about TotalBiscut on the last Co-optional podcast saying "The game world is great, and the quests are amazing, but combat sucks so I won't play it. I don't know what they were thinking.' (very paraphrased).

    Good mechanics will save a bad story. A good story (even if it's Garriott/Hickman level) can not save bad mechanics.
     
  14. Zylo

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    Really good post. Good points.

    I've been playing Shroud for a few days.... I come on the forum to talk about how awful the combat is..... I find a ton of people agreeing.. TONS of people agreeing... No one is loving it... I find other people saying "OMG not this Conversation again"...

    I'm new here, but if this conversation has been going on since the beginning? If people are that tired of hearing people complain about the combat, why didn't they make it fun? The Combat seems to be a really REALLY common complaint of the game and a BIG one....

    To the people complaining to me about people complaining about combat AGAIN... You're only making my point... Tons of players hate the combat and find it boring. It's a spectator sport... It's like watching paint dry... It's that bad.

    There is zero chance I will play Shroud of the Avatar due to this poor mechanic.

    It's really sad, I was really hoping for a lot... I was hoping for something new.... Freeman made great a great post here.... There's no way I can stay and play this game. I wanted to...
     
  15. Sir_Hemlock

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    Shrouds combat system will go down in video game history as one of the worst development decisions of all time.
     
  16. Freeman

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    My First post on the topic - March 29th 2013.

    It's still a bit sketchy at that point because Chris had barely mentioned his plan, and Garriott was still talking about "no bars, no health meters, no anything, just focus on the action." I honestly didn't believe they'd go through with it at that point.
     
  17. Wizardess

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    I have to agree that combat is stale in this game. I dont think card games like MTG work well in Realtime.

    As the other poster put it, they have my money so there is no demand in my voice here but I think even a paragraph from the devs about any possible update to combat might make people a little more at ease.

    I have been here inly a couple of days but I ended up going locked glyphs after the second day because I did not agree that a wizards spells should be random (nor mitigated so).

    I am certain the melees and archers agree.

    So now I am learning to relove the ol' hotbar. Its difficult at low levels as I run out of focus after 2 spells but I make do. I guess that is the penalty adn as a new player I can accept it.

    But if the entire community is asking for a sea change then perhaps someone may want to listen before we gave an empty server.
     
  18. Logain

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    I wrote I'd vote in it's favour only two postings above yours, but I guess everything that doesn't match with your desire to turn SotA into a Mortal Kombat game might not worth your time reading.

    Are you seriously using a 10 release outdated video from the first ever appearance of combat (R6) to prove your point? ~shrugs~ Could have linked to Net's great Combat lessons as well and only be three releases behind.

    Ok, well, since nobody has shown the courtesy to only remotely answer my previously question, showing the desire for a serious discussion, I'm going to hide and stop responding to these threads.
     
  19. Freeman

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    Even if there are newer videos, its a fine comparison to make.


     
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  20. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    Comparing an FPS and a racing game to a fantasy RPG? :eek:

    I wouldn't shed a tear for the loss of someone who starts a post complaining that SotA's combat is not Tekken or Quake.

    For as bad as SotA's combat is or may be, good riddance.
     
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