Convert to cards?

Richard said in the last postmortem that he is becoming a convert to the current combat system. That means he wasn't always on board and perhaps still isn't completely. I would like to know what Richard originally had in mind. What system he would have been fine with him from the beginning. I am convinced that the Maker of Worlds would have come up with something I would prefer to what is in place. Combat is a major part of the infrastructure of a game like this. With that said, if he doesn't even believe in the current system and it overall doesn't even feel like it belongs in the Ultima universe, then how is it even his game? As I see it, if he doesn't believe in a major part of the game then this is someone else's game with his name stamped on it. I have pledged, then sold my pledge, then pledged, and sold my pledge. I keep getting tricked into thinking this game is an Richard Garriott game. Please make it so. This random card system is a square peg in an otherwise beautiful game. Whether it is fun or not, it doesn't belong. Talk about an immersion breaker.

 

Sounds like a question you might want to ask for the next hangout? I'd love to hear that part as well.

 

When the Combat system concept was first mentioned just before the close of the Kickstarter project, LB had said he was not a fan of the concept. I am not sure he had any other particular idea in mind, but the team - or maybe just Chris - convinced him to give it a try. Not to put words in their month, but that is historically how it was presented.

 

Agree 100%. Everything about this game is perfect - except for the immersion breaking combat. It's completely inconsistent with the rest of the game.

 

Personally I like the card system after having mastered it now. There is a learning curve when you're used to using the old and boring static type of combat bar as used in most games. Once you take the time to learn it though it's actually quite fun and now that you can decide which slots your glyphs will pop up in it's even better now. I hope they continue to improve it rather than toss it out because I love it.

 

I deleted Shroud of the Avatar after the R18 postmortem. Case closed for me.

I dont want to hear about &%&$& card combat ever again.

 

I can't say I blame you one bit, Sir Hemlock. It really has been a deal/game breaker for a lot of people. I'm still holding out some small hope that they change it before it's too late.

 

Mostly, I'm just posting here so I can say this isn't me who posted this.

Obviously though, I agree 100%. The system would work well as a side project. If you need to make some money to help keep development of this going then create an iOS card ap that plays like this. People will play it. I'll play it. But it doesn't have to be here. It doesn't have to be with this.

I'm giving them through R20 and see what they will push out. They said by then the system should be where they want it, and if not... I'm curious to see what happens when people still say 'no'. My suggestion to everyone is to give them through there and see what happens. Come back at R20 one more time and find out.

I would say to the people who like it now, ask yourself if it's good, or if it's good enough.

Mostly just Chris. Chris actually had mentioned it in the video feed just before their public conversation on combat. Garriott was not won over at the time, and honestly don't see how this fits his design philosophy. Garriott saying if it wasn't liked, it wouldn't stay is why I didn't cancel my pledge on the spot. I don't want a clunky mechanic in the middle of a world priding itself on immersion.

That said, we'll see what happens this release. It will have to be a lot of change, and even more for R20, for people to look past the core concept of combat.

 

Well prior to fixing combat they could start fixing character control.......
Yes, there is also some people out there saying character control is OK, so why bother, does it mean they don't want a BETTER character control system???
And then one day you find a conversation where they state they have dial up conn and they use a Trackball when playing MMOs...
Nice customer target niche tbh.......

 

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The idea that there might be an alternative to card combat through Richard's own doubts and desire to see something else more organic was my last hope for this. Him "converting" (whatever that means - sounds more like "giving in" to me) just goes to show me how little influence he has in all of this, either figuratively through vision or literally through design.

 

I've stated that the R18 improvements have helped, and they have, so I can see why RG would say that he's "becoming a convert". He's also a software developer and if there's one thing I've learned about successful developers, they do NOT like to throw away code that they've invested themselves into. They will rework it to do death to salvage what they've created and it requires real discipline and razor sharp objectivity to come to the conclusion that it must be done.

I guess we'll see if this is something they have or don't have. My mind remains open, but if the game releases as is, combat-wise, I'm gone. Everything else is so.... sigh.

Let's hope they go forward with their thought of an in-game poll. Surely, RG could influence that decision. I feel somewhat certain that, if done, such a poll would show a significant percentage of their backers are not interested in "card combat".

 

Even if the majority of backers hated card combat, this is scheduled and deviation from it other than improving it would put off the release of the game. It would also leave people scratching their heads and backers (investors) would question why a major feature was scrapped. I just hope it doesn't bite Port in the rear when the game releases. Personally, I feel the card combat system is a means to a accommodate a combat solution. It has yet to be tested with end game elite mobs. That is where the system is going to be criticized the most in my opinion. We shall see where as the gets closer to release.

 

QFT. It takes a ton of effort to get me to let go of an idea I've poured heart, soul and tears into with development. The old saying:

"Writing is easy. You just open a vein and bleed onto the page."

Also applies to any code of this scale. You simply don't give up that much of yourself quietly. It's part of why, what ever disagreements I have with Chris Spears over this, he has my respect for building something like this. It may not be something I, or many others, want. It definitely isn't something we asked for. But it isn't something done without thought, or with malice. It's something he believes in, and will fight for. That's commendable.

I think the wording of the poll will be a big deal. If it's "Can you live with this if we push it through" you'll have a chunk of people saying "yeah... I guess". If you say "Is this what you want?" Or "can you see yourself enjoying this system for years?" or "Is this a flagship revolutionary system that will redefine how others do combat?" probably not.

 

I haven't liked the combat systems in any of the ultima games, including UO. (Although I think UO is far better than any other ultima game). So.. I'm not sure I'd like to see LB's take on a combat system hehe.. I prefer a tactical and less action oriented system. Which this one is. They are testing out on the Dev+ QA server a big change to combat right now.. All I'll say is it is more action based...

 

Ok, so, several things. But, really this is the one that stands out to me. Why did you back this if you don't want his take on game systems?

 

He must have just drawn all conversation cards which stated "must like this" so he had no choice

 

I said I didn't like his combat systems. Rest of the games were great. I loved UO (although always felt the combat was weak). His games aren't all about combat, otherwise I wouldn't play at all. Even if I were unhappy with the combat system I'd still play this game, just as I still played UO. Just because everything else about the game is good... now, it just so happens I like the combat system in this game.

 

What is the first Ultima you played? Because I can promise 1 - 3 were specifically about combat, and as for the ones after that 2 of the virtues are directly combat related. Let's look at the back of Ultima V's box:



Note the first things it says about the things you can expect inside. A detailed combat system. Other adds talk about having to use the terrain to deal with the battles taking place.

Ultima VI started us not focusing so much on it, but still had very technical combat. Ultima VII got a pass on it's combat because it was noninvasive. It wasn't good, but that's because you didn't have to do anything with it. Ultima VIII and IX were arcade action fests that dealt almost entirely with combat.

UO, there were no specific quests originally. Just crafting and fighting. Houses and player run things eventually sprung up, but combat was the draw.

So when you say his games aren't about combat... I think you're glossing over the importance it plays in them.

But I think that's a point to make too. You'd still play this game with another combat system. Most people against it won't. I think most people who like the system are more like you. They'd play if something else was here.

 

Ah.. good memories. I'd take Ultima V's combat over card combat any day.

 

This is the critical truth.