Convert to cards?

Good question in the OP. Hearing about the alternatives would be interesting.

One question I think about is what are the available options that we do not have in game now? It is easy to observe that SOTA combat is different, but what is actually missing? As is, SOTA allows both decking building with rotating card combat, and it allows fixed skill slot combat. Unlike other games, it is not all or none in its skill presentation approach, we get to choose what we want when we want it. How flexible is that? Next, if the new 'free combat' system sticks, we will also have a very active-mouse-click driven combat. available. Check. What else could be added too, and why would it fit this genre? FPS style combat? Diablo III freestyle skill selection?

I like what Mishri said. It is good perspective. Many of us have played games with combat systems more rudimentary than we are blessed with today; games with fewer individual combat skills than SOTA has; games with fewer combat skill trees than SOTA has; games with far fewer choices for character skill customization than SOTA has and promises; games where we had one presentation choice compared to SOTA allowing both fixed skills and a rotating deck; and games where skill animations and effects didn't look half as good as what SOTA has today in Alpha testing. We enjoyed those games. It wasn't necessarily about the combat model, it was about the game.

Clearly combat is important and can improve. Not saying otherwise. But combat is more than just how the game presents skills on a bar. Combat is a combination of interesting itemization, cool skills, cool effects, choices in skills, the presentation of those skills on the bar, the animations, the 'feel' that a blow has landed, the sound effects, the feedback the game gives us, compelling enemies, the balance vs enemies, ambiance of the terrain and dungeons, and more. Hitting a button on a skill bar alone is not what makes combat immersive. It is the combination of these things working together. As all of these elements come along in SOTA, I think we will see combat, including the deck system, feeling all the much more organic and natural. Each month we are seeing more and more progress in that direction.

 

With a locked hotbar of 9 slots, and way more skills than that... we're missing an awful lot.

With an unbalanced cross between two different combat systems and a small team on a tight deadline and a budget, something's got to give. Finding that balance will be hard to do for two systems.

We're missing a unified vision, and a flag placed in the 'new' combat system will be a defining feature of the game, one that turns other players off.

But mostly:

We're missing an actual interesting system, because simply offering a locked bar is not the same as creating a quality system. Saying "here's a piece of bread. Sorry you don't like tofu. Why are you complaining? You got bread. You don't have to eat what we're eating. You don't want to eat old food from someone else's plate do you? We cooked this fresh." isn't an argument for why we should stick with this system.

It's the age old fallacy that the only alternative is a WoW clone, and even if that was what we got, it would be a good step. But it's a hybrid lock, with a limited number of losts and skills that have to share their build points with the other side and philosophy of design. For many of us, neither option is acceptable, and neither can achieve it's potential as long as the other one remains. Even if we wished for a third option, at least killing one off might make the other stronger.

Which means, yes you're reading that right. I'd rather just see locked bars killed off and the random deck do it's thing than this hybrid system. I won't play it. But at least it would be backing something the team believed in enough to not have to hedge their bets.

One billion percent agree.

And you lost me. Because here's the thing. The deck system takes all the focus out of all those things you said above, and puts it squarely on the buttons. The buttons literally become the game. Some extras may appear up above, but the core mechanic is those buttons and not the other way around.

 

I'm currently playing exclusively from a locked deck and the game is well, just... OKAY. Imagine how much better it could be if they ditched the whole deck system and came up with something truly immersive? Something involving active cover, movement, you know more tactical. And yes I tried the deck version and it just doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

 

Weren't cards a part of combat since the beginning??? I don't remember ever playing SotA without a card system.

 

It was. Chris outlined the system all the way back in November 2013 : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-combat.4094/

Richard was initially skeptical on the concept though, which is what this thread was referring to.

 

"Initially" implies "at first". He was skeptical all the way up to the recent hangout (2 years later), and even referred to his original discussion about a UI-less combat system two (maybe 3?) Hangouts ago.

I just wish he'd tell us what sold him on it that's so different from R17. The more "changes" they make the more it takes what's bad about card combat and meshes it with the humdrum of hotbar combat. It's the worst of both worlds.

 

The main issues I see:
We have 2 different and inconsistent combat systems. ( imho Locked Deck is facing death sooner or later)
Deck system reduces a lot the number of available skills, grinding same spells over and over makes game boring.
Skills tree system is killing freedom when selecting skills, you have to expend points in useless skills to reach the one you want, making them too expensive.

I'm using Locked Deck now, and every time I want to do some Dynamic Deck testing I have to change my whole Skill trees in order to
make Dynamic Deck working fine. It would be great for testing purposes being able to link Skill trees to Decks during Alpha.

 

To me the thing that makes me sad is that RG got burned so bad when he did Tabula Rasa, but tons of new games are running with that format and are a blast to play. It's like other people are using these ideas to make fun games. I really want something that's as smooth and fun to play with as Tabula Rasa with the depth of content and customization of Ultima Online.

 

Where is the immersive combat system RG promised time ago? Deck system is immersion killer, How long do you need to realice?

 

Patience brothers and sisters of the Shroud! (that's my 2 cents Canadian)

 

I know I'm here for social and roleplay aspects of gaming. I'll do some combat, but it's not the major focus of my game, nor was it ever during my playing of Ultima or even UO.

I'm fine with the combat system as it stands for the Combat tree, but I'm very bummed that Magic is not more like the Ultima series. Where are the Words of Power? Why are the trees so limited in scope? Where are the spells that do anything other than damage or heal? Where are enchantment, open locks, wizard eye, create food or summon moongate? Even in combat, where are the unique spells? Blade barrier, protection, energy field? The elemental trees are mostly copies of one another, same with Life/Death and Sun/Moon; rather than each having unique abilities. I loved mages in Ultima, but I just can't stand trying to play one in SotA.

 

There is more feeling and power in a single UO spell than in the whole Deck system.

 

Still prefer the deck system over a locked skill system. The changes made this release has really given a lot more choice. I think its time to move on from dreaming of a UO based spell system.......it wouldn't work well in SotA anyway.

 

You are lying and you know it..........
How many exciting moments did you have in UO?, come on, that is not going to happen anymore....not with this Deck system.
It is not about Locked or Dynamic its about feeling......excitement......and freedom........
It wouldnt work well in SotA is like saying that LB lost his opportunity to impress all of us again.......
Money oh yes money.............
The game looks Outstanding, but combat , nope, combat doens't......at least for the time being....

 

I guess I already made my suggestion about how to "fix" magic, but keep the same glyph system...

 

Deck system has nothing to be with Ultima series.If you ask me,its just a bad WOW or AoC copy, which is utterly sad.
Oh yes it has randomnnes , yes , wow?....

 

I agree with Envy in regards to the deck system. Having had spent the time learning the deck system and getting to the point now where I feel like I have mastered it, I don't think I'll enjoy a static locked hotbar any more from now on. I'd like for the deck system to continue to be improved, but I don't want to see it go away.

 

Combos are where magic will shine, IMO. Combos within a school, combos between different schools, combos using weapons as a focus, combos between magic and consumables, combos between combos, combos between combos between combos. We just don't have much of that yet.

Its really the equivalent of Words of Power, except that the basic spells don't require you to compose them. We haven't really had to do that since U6 anyway (or Ultima Underworld if you count that). In Ultima games through U6, you had to manually enter Words of Power. From U7 onward, including with UO, you just clicked your spellbook, and it was automated. Combos bring back "spell composition."

But yes, IMO, its true there are some missing spells and missing non-combat spells.

 

I'm really bummed they didn't go with a more free-form magic system (like some previous Ultimas)... Early on, many people suggested learning spells by finding books or scrolls ULTIMA-STYLE; apparently this suggestion was completely ignored... The skill trees feel so 'generic' and contrived; I also hate the fact that you already know every 'spell' (or skill, or whatever the heck they are) in advance by just looking at it's tree, where's that sense of discovery Lord British spoke of?!

Also, C'MON when are we gonna see non-combat utility SPELLS (besides LIGHT, woot! pfft) and other non-magical abilities (like REAL stealth - NOT moon magic)??!! And what about creature taming? Haven't heard a peep about that 'feature' so far... If this was already addressed then my apologies but I didn't see it...

I look at the timeline for this game and just think "no way"! IMHO without many more CORE GAMING FEATURES (NO! NOT more housing furnitures and RP emotes) this game is not going to attract enough new gamers to self-sustain.

 

Discoverability will be in combos, mike. Its like crafting, you can potentially create infinite variety of combos, and the devs will continue to add more. Right now in the game, you have a little combo window to show you what combos you can make. But, I'm pretty sure, eventually, they'll make you learn them first.

And I like that, because its like the discoverability of combos of Words of Power that existed in up through U6. I remember playing U5 excited about the fact that there might be WoP + reagent combos that I didn't learn yet. And lo and behold, there were some, like Create Food and Change Wind.

Though, actually, you have a point in that a "blind skill tree" might be cool, too.

I'm also pretty sure that scrolls will also come in later in the game, and also non-combat spells, though I'm eager to see them do that also. They've also talked about putting in non-magic stealth, but that depends on the cover system (hiding behind objects), which they've confirmed, but haven't been able to get in game yet. Also, they've talked about creature taming. What will happen, as they've described it, is you'll get "taming collars" and use that on animals in the wild.