Convert to cards?

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Concept, Jun 15, 2015.

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  1. Otha Livinded

    Otha Livinded Avatar

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    I have to admit, I am astounded that people actually argue in favor of the immersion breaking, abstracted, "deck" combat system by stating that one can avoid it's awfulness by locking the deck.

    It's akin to selling someone a house with an electrical system that will catch it on fire if you turn the lights on, and including candles, matches and a bunch of rocks to build a campfire with the purchase, and a note to not use electricity- instead of just fixing the wiring to avoid a catastrophe!

    WHY not fix what doesn't work to begin with. It's not like a RPG friendly combat system would cost more than the badly conceived one, a second one that tries to work around the bad issues, and then all that additional wasted time and effort trying to make the jerry-rigged, badly conceived ideas function.
     
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  2. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    That is a poor analogy. Electricity is not optional in a modern home.

    The deck system is completely optional. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can play the game completely without ever touching it.
     
  3. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

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    As you said again, it really IS "The Emporer's New Clothes". Most of the people in the crowd not only don't want to gainsay the mighty RG, they have actually convinced themselves that he looks pretty snazzy in those dazzling threads.

    The catastrophic failure of the game will convince them and make the point, but nothing else short of Portalarium declaring the system defunct and releasing a new system will make them switch. Of course, within two months of such a release, unless it's even WORSE, those same supporters will be rallying behind whatever got shoveled out. It doesn't matter that it's good or bad, it matters that they support.
     
  4. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Except RG himself was skeptical of the system, as were many of us. We didn't swear to a system we hadn't tried out of blind loyalty. It was only in trying the system have I come to love it.

    And if you don't love it, you don't have to use it.
     
  5. Otha Livinded

    Otha Livinded Avatar

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    I think there is an excellent chance that first the skill system for combat will change for the better- (as in learned skills per UO), and then after that, a slow re-do towards a more RPG friendly combat system as well.

    The majority of vocal players- the roleplayers who recall the Ultimas fondly, have clearly already expressed, repeatedly, their dislike of the deck system's fit into a RPG game. It doesn't work, if you want to experience an immersive, real feeling world, because the system physically drags you out of the game world.

    My analogy above is perfectly valid. The deck system feels like an automobile with square wheels- if roleplaying is your vehicle.

    I understand that those who never experience a real RPG like UO don't get it- and that there are some people who like computer card strategy games, who don't care a whit about roleplaying.

    But, Shroud of the Avatar has been touted as an actual rpg that is a spiritual successor to UO. That, and the fact that RG was making it, was why I pledged.

    It is obvious to me as a conceptual game designer and loooong time pc roleplayer that the deck combat system runs counter to the ideas of playing a role and staying immersed in the game.

    All you have to do is actually play it with neutral eyes, compare it to past games and other rpgs of today, and there it is.

    It's equally obvious that you can't have both a pie and a cake under the same hood.

    Either you tailor your game systems to supporting roleplay, or you don't.

    In the case of Shroud you have a very UOish, roleplayer friendly, largely invisible crafting and housing interface....and then a terribly obtrusive, immersion breaking card game combat system.

    Either it changes, or a great many core roleplayers who have loved the Ultimas will not be hanging around long.

    I suppose RG already has made his money off of the Founders who loved his past masterpieces. But, it's a bit sad, in my opinion, that there isn't enough care beyond making a buck, to create something sublime and wonderful once more- because it doesn't take more money to do that- just love of what you are creating.
     
  6. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Usage-based advancement has nothing to do with actual combat.
     
  7. Otha Livinded

    Otha Livinded Avatar

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    Incorrect. In any good game design, all systems work together- pull towards the common goal of giving the player an experience better than the sum of it's parts. All systems are interwoven, and you can't fuss majorly with one, and not consider the other parts. I've been a conceptual game designer for 20 years, sir, and you, are mistaken.
     
  8. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Well what about if your strength goes up because you have been working hard and your strength goes up. you would then hit a bit harder. I'm not saying that is how it will be implemented, but I am curious to see what is being done and I am not worried the Devs will work it out with us.:)
     
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  9. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    First you insist that optional systems are the same as mandatory systems. Now you insist that a non-combat system changes combat.

    These are both simply factually incorrect. They're not a matter of opinion or debatable.

    You're entitled to your opinion of the deck system, but you're quite wrong on these two points.
     
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  10. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Your damage can go up through leveling up through experience points or just pure usage in a skill. Either way, you get a skill point to invest in the tree, which can you use to increase your strength.

    But how combat resolves is not affected either way. You will still have active and passive skills from the skill tree, and you will activate your active skills from a locked hotbar, a hybrid bar, or the random glyph/deck system. Combat does not change one iota.

    I think there are people who want to get rid of the skill tree and deck system, so they're calling for something completely unrelated, assuming that if we implement usage-based advancement, that will open the door to scrapping all existing systems and creating a clone of UO. That isn't happening.

    And if the real concern is the skill tree/deck system, then simply say so. It isn't beneficial to point to the wrong thing.
     
  11. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Well I think much of the argument has been that we have a boring system right now. You buy a skill then you get a skill and if you get another skill you are perhaps better in that skill. Buying a skill does not equal fun if that is the way that combat will go. It does not fit in with the game premise. This is a story based game trying to have something for everyone, but yet where's the story to how you learn your skills. It is not just about taking a skill based system and making it into a usage based system. No way that is the reason all of this debate is going on. We are voting for a more fun and interesting system. If the Devs work the system to being a hybrid system that tells a story about our struggles to be more effective with fire for example and allows that once you learn about fire you can then enchant with fire, resist fire a bit better and even journey to discover how to use fire. Just buying and getting a skill is way too lame and the game deserves much better than this. It would be extremely sad to me if the details are left out. So just my take at the other side of the reasoning. Perhaps and while I don't know exactly or want to put words in your mouth there is a side to this reasoning that is being overlooked. The character development in a game is really fun and exciting for many and leveling alone does not satisfy that desire. No one is saying destroy the system. We just want more than picking a skill:)
     
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  12. Otha Livinded

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    Obviously, anyone cognizant in game design knows that "skills" don't have to be limited to harvesting abilities, making enderandrew's claim that "Usage-based advancement has nothing to do with actual combat" seem rather silly. You can hardy cook the soup without any meat or vegetables- and enderandrew is claiming that cooking has nothing to do with what "goes into the pot". Perhaps he is a philosopher.

    A game's parts must work together towards a goal. If you have a roleplaying online game with a world, all the parts need to work towards creating a believable world that is fun, immersive and you care about.

    Which, was my point that enderandrew wants to ignore.

    Of course, the real, single, fatal flaw in the current deck system is exactly the lack of recognition by the combat system designer that Shroud of the Avatar is a roleplaying game world. By treating the combat system as some standalone, isolated system outside of the roleplaying goodness found throughout the rest of the game's systems, the designer or designers have put together a perfectly viable card game that doesn't even need an avatar or monster to play it.

    Everything happens in the deck. The monsters become trival. The world doesn't matter. The abstraction and moving away from the screen where the "real action" ought to be in a 21st century computer game, everything that is roleplaying friendly dissolves- the whole world becomes irrelevant.

    In my opinion.
     
  13. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    See that is the thing some people are unhappy with, buying skills. They're unhappy with the tree and glyph system.

    Chris and Starr said a usage-based advancement system for SotA would sit on top of existing systems. They didn't say you'd stop spending points in the skill tree.

    Right you you gain a level in adventuring and get skill points for anything in the adventuring pool. A usage-based system for SotA would likely mean that swinging a sword gets you a skill point you can only put into Blades. This will encourage grinding a macros since you advance through repetition rather than experience points, but it does not remove the skill tree or glyphs.

    It is far too late in the game to completely rip out that system and replace it. Nor does it make sense to just make a UO clone. If someone wants to play UO, it still exists. You can play that right now.

    The more useful conversation is discussing the specifics of the current system that people are unhappy with and seeking to make it better.
     
  14. Lord Baldrith

    Lord Baldrith Avatar

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    What we are unhappy with is, casting fire spells and being able to spend points on pole arm skills...Doesn't make any sense...In an immersive world, with a good character development system (like UO) fun character development takes place when the skills you actually are practicing are the ones that advance.

    I am not talking about ripping out the current system, rather enhancing it to add this kind of functionality. Why shouldn't my character develop from what he's actually doing rather than putting points anywhere just based on gaining a level? Aren't like 95% of games currently doing that? This is a game that is based on the Ultimas and Ultima Online, so I would expect a better system than what WoW and EQ2 do.
     
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  15. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    UO is all about macros and cheating and has been for 18 years. I don't consider that good.

    Now consider this. SotA changes and you can only improve fire magic by using fire magic. That means people will have at least the first skill or spell for free or you'd never be able to get started. So you have to rebalance advancement. And you spend all your early advancement with that one skill, repeating the same skill constantly until you can get good enough to buy a second.

    Is that more fun or does that sound like a horrible chore?

    That is what you're asking for, making the advancement process itself more of a chore. And the first few hours of a game are crucial. They determine if a player is going to stick with a game. That is how reviews are written. Making the first few hours worse is not a wise decision.
     
  16. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Ok well you don't get it enderandrew. So no matter what someone says there is a disconnect for some reason, hmmm. No way is it to late to embelish the current system and it indeed needs that to happen. So more than once it has happened, if there is no time to make a better game, we should just stop now. I will rally for this and I will not say the game is ready when it is not. Going to launch with lame systems that are not fleshed out to be fun will do no one any good. Who says the addition of usage is going to go the way you or I picture it? I did not say we were going to a usage based system, we are getting some interesting, well hopefully interesting dynamics to a very lame system and unfun system. It is necessary to embelish this system and why you can't dream a bit, I don't remember you not dreaming for fun things in the game. I don't ask that we copy UO, I asked that we be the best that we can be and don't miss out on the fun factor which is not saying to not buy a skill since that is the system we have in place, but after the purchase of that skill you do not totally know that skill even if you bought more copies you may be a bit better with that skill but you could burn your fingers on that fire or accidentally set fire to the dresser in your home, hmmm wheres my douse skill;). Who says how the usage factor will be implemented? Perhaps not in the way any of us would imagine. Perhaps it's not repetitious but is circumstantial and situational. Perhaps goals and trials and tribulations make it work. It does not have to be cut and dry buy a skill automatically then get any usage gains. There should be more to it. Way more details to it. So anyway I understand you have your view and we shall all have to wait and see how this goes, oh but I am attached to my story of it and the details I see happening. Not saying they will but please please please let us have details.
     
  17. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    There is a difference between altering a system and completely ripping out all the core mechanics and starting from scratch.

    That is why we might see months of wasted development on usage-based advancement (which has serious drawbacks and no major benefit) directly costing other systems and making the game worse. And when that system comes, it won't actually replace the skill tree, so people who wanted that won't get what they wanted.

    It took damned near two years to put in the skills into the skill tree. Ripping all that out and replacing it will be exceedingly costly, to the point where it is impossible for a project of this scope and budget. Asking for one thing when people really want that isn't beneficial to anyone.

    I think there is a meaningful compromise which will improve the situation for everyone and should make all players happy. I just need to draw it up.
     
  18. Lord Baldrith

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    Why do you keep talking about cheating and macroing? Let's put that whole argument aside. It's irrelevant to what we are talking about here. The devs will find a way to deal with all that...It's 2015 not 1997. We are not using UOs engine....Port is not EA etc etc.

    Okay? My fire mage is going to be casting fire spells hence the fire spells he uses will increase in power along with int, focus, concentration or whatever other relevant skills go with magery and fire. Why is that bad? Isn't being rewarded for fighting with the skills you are actually going to play with that particular character good? Looking at thru the eyes of everyone is a cheater and going to just cheat isn't productive here. Better to just look at it thru the eyes of what makes sense to develop your character...

    Character development to me is not a chore. It's fun. Raising levels to have a pool of points to spend like a grocery store is not fun for me. I want my character to improve in the areas he is actually working. That is character development not generic leveling like most games have. This is not the same old same old type of game...this is a Richard Garriott game that is deeper than what you normally see.

    Is it really a chore to notice your character is improving as you quest and fight and do what your character is doing in the world? I don't think that's a chore...That's fun for me.
     
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  19. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Because it cannot be ignored as a risk factor in introducing usage-based advancement.

    It is only bad in the first few hours when the only way to get started is to spam the only fire spell you have with no other options and wait for the cooldown, spam and wait for the cooldown.

    That is a chore.
     
  20. Otha Livinded

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    Excellent post, majoria70.

    And I don't think it is too late at all, to re-design the combat system. There have been many classic game designs that had huge revamps quite late in their game cycle.

    I recall back when Neverwinter Nights was in production- quite late in production- the entire single player game was decided to be too minimal by the bean-counting executives, and the whole completed SP story and existing game was quietly tossed so that more focus could be placed on that part of the game for sales considerations. The entire shipped SP game was created in the last three months before game released amidst a desperate scramble-and the DM or gamemaster portion still wasn't ready at ship date because of that, and was included in the initial couple of patches as a result.

    The game is a masterpiece of MP design. There really hasn't been a better recreation of tabletop dungeon-mastering type possibilities online since that game. It was mind-blowingly creative- you could host friends on your own world with up to 64 players, and play the part of monsters and all that- but huge last minute changes were made at the end. It's systems were elegant and beautiful and simple, and never got in the way of the roleplaying.

    The thing is, we can't expect RG and company to change flawed portions of their combat system unless we make it clear to them that a half baked, un-immersive combat system just won't do.

    It's one thing to trust the devs to listen to us, but if we remain silent and pray for light to shine down upon them with blind trust, we ought not expect any changes. If we really care about having a game as great as RG's past triumphs- it's up to us, and nobody else, to point out problems where there are huge problems. Everyone needs to speak up, and do so NOW.

    If we love our emperor- and he thinks he's wearing a great outfit and he is really naked- it's in his interests and ours to let him know about his lack of royal duds.
     
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