Subterfuge

Greetings! Here is some input on the Subterfuge Tree:

Observations on a few skills so far:

- Distract: Nonfunctional? No noticeable effect on creatures so far.
- Engage Opponent: Works as indicated but range is far too small to be useful.
- Trip - I successfully knocked down things like skeletons and bandits. But never alligators.
- Camoflage - Works as indicated in description
- Train Dexterity - Works as indicated in description

Thoughts on reorganizing the skills:

- Consider if everything thieving related has to come out of Camoflage or not. My take is that some thieves may want to be able to use a thieving skill and not necessarily rely on stealth.

- Make Trip the first tree skill. Trip seems like a simple feat anyone could do. Distract seems like it should be a much harder skill to master.

- Place Distract off of Trip.

- Place Pick Lock and Pick Pocket off of Distract. This creates a line of thieving related skills, vs. having the Pick skills feel like after thoughts off of combat skills or relating them to combat skills which is unnecessary. Some thieves may want to Pick but not backstab.

- Poison - Make this a red (because it is DOT) skill off of Engage Opponent, vs. a blue skill off of Trip. I don't see the connection to Trip? Trip seems like a utility skill, while poison is a damage skill.

- Leave Sneak Attack and Sap as the skills off of Silent Movement. This seems logical so long as they require stealth to work. I would prefer they didn't though. I would rather see these melee skills work from behind at any time, and just get more powerful or better chance of critical if the character is stealthed. But ok as is.

 

With the speed of the enemies I don't know the utility of trip.
I'm low level and it is just a delay. I get in one attack while they are down which negates the trip use itself.

 

Yeah, I agree on that. I was only using Trip as a knock down against melee opponents really. Not in pursuit. I haven't tested it in pursuit.

 

Andaluz, I actually like the subterfuge tree the way it is for the most part. I'm not sure why that polearm innate is in there though. I think that should be in the polearm tree.

 

worth mentioning that enemies that have been tripped still chase and attack you.

 

I think the description of "Trip" needs to be changed. It says "knock down on next hit" right now. This made me think that maybe I could cast it, then move in closer to my target and trip them with my next ability or free attack. Trip is an attack though. When you cast it, the player does a trip animation and the trip is enacted. I think the description should say "An attack that trips the target." or just for fun it could say "Sweep the leg!" haha

 

I was planning to post this in the general forums, but I just found this thread, so...

- IT ISN'T CLEAR HOW DISTRACT WORKS
What are you doing as a player -- throwing a stone? If so, I think it would make sense for it to actually consume small stones, and have stones lying around randomly in scenes. Stones could be of different sizes, but count the same. Also, I'd like to see noisemaker arrows later on, so we can combine Distract with archery, to increase the distance.

- WHAT ABOUT DETECT TRAP / DISARM TRAP
Traps on chests, or in general, would be a nice addition to the game. Detect Trap would give you some hint that there was a trap, and give you the ability to disarm it. Possibly synergies with a Tinkering skillset would also be cool.

- ISSUES ABOUT WHERE TRIP FITS IN
It makes sense to consider this a "sneak" skill, thus fit for Subterfuge. It also makes sense for it to develop from Distract, since you have to master some art of distraction. However I have a few quibbles about it. First, its not clear how Trip leads to Poison Weapon, if you consider the skill trees a kind of progression of mastery. They're two completely different skill types. And it did make some sense to put it in the Tactics tree, as done originally, because it can be part of a close-quarters fighting style. So, for example, a while back, I made a thread where I suggested some Shield skills, and one, in combo with Trip, that would create a Takedown. Trips, throws, takedowns, etc, can actually be considered martial arts moves, fit with some of the other skills like stances on the Tactics tree, and makes sense with skill weaving/combos. I'm not saying to move it back; just exploring all angles on this.

 

There's a text error on Poison Weapon btw. "The skillful application of poison to a wapon"

 

Isn't Poison Weapon functionally the same as Ignite Weapon? They both just change your weapon and both are blue.

 

As for applying poisons to weapons in the first place... although I like this, its not obvious to me why it needs a skill. How does one skilfully, vs unskillfully apply a potion.

Also, I still think it would be an interesting game mechanic if you could apply all sorts of potions/oils to your weapon. I suggested a while back applying salves to weapons for temporary enchantments in any school of magic. It could temporarily make your sword flaming, electric, or powerful against undead. Recently, I've been playing Witcher 3, where they actually use this concept, and you can apply oils to your weapon, which are damaging to certain types of creatures, before you go into battle. I don't know if the devs are interested in something like that at all. But it might make some sense to have ways to apply potions other than poisons to weapons, and for this to be a broader game mechanic than a Subterfuge poison skill.

 

Not poisoning yourself vs dying coated in posion due to not knowing how to handle it? At least it's how it is in D&D

It was discussed somewhere else too, but I do not like that poisoning a weapon is a X-second in-combat buff. You usually poison your weapon before combat to have it ready, and it should last either a relatively long time (hours? a day?) or a set number of hits. Being able to apply different kinds of potions could indeed be a cool mechanic.

 

Yea, but that's basically -- don't touch it -- isn't it? I suppose it requires knowledge of how to do it right so you don't touch it.

I'm still thinking that it probably would be more interesting to leave the mechanic open to coating weapons with other sorts of potions/oils, too. Just IMO.

 

@Kether,

I'm reading some D&D materials. I think part of it is being able to do it quickly, in the middle of battle, I think?

 

Works in pursuit fine, for mages and archers. You just need to time it for when they are about to bolt out of melee range. Depending on your haste rating, you should get 2 auto +/or feathering in a skill to finish.

Can use for lulz against spiders.

Also just as a short mitigation tactic

Is there not an alchemy recipe for Poison Weapon? Tried combinations at table, also hit major cities to purchase and nada. Although you can buy from alchemist pre-made

UO poison was done quite well, from what I remember. Good for so many hits once applied, and required high skill to not kill yourself when working with Deadly. (which was insanely deadly back in t2a anyways)

 

Yeah, mainly... in a non-stressful stituation you can always just take care (take 10). The main thing is that, once the poison is applied, it shouldn't just be a X-second buff, be in-battle or with preparation prior to combat

 

Actually it's not a "Polearm" specific skill, the picture just makes it look that way. The description reads: Armor Weak Points, "Increases critical chance with all weapons" probably added this way to make daggers and short swords a TINY bit more useful...NO ONE uses them for good reason.

 

Thank you! I should learn to read, or this was a patch.