Release 24 Crafting changes

Amen to that

 

I still want to be both - even with the current system

 

I'm actually directly addressing this. That's what this whole thing is about. The value of the crafting system is broken because right now it's just a success rate game with minor changes of crits for one extra stat that is OP enough that everyone is okay with it.

Which brings me back to my core question: So the only value of GM is the ability to not fail at making what everyone else makes?

I'm going to be very frank here and say I can make a table IRL on earth... I've made a table. I'm not a carpenter. I can make a desk. I've made a printer desk. I'm not a carpenter. The success of completion is not something that should be the "end" of progression. The quality of completion should be, and arguably cannot be quantified so should be never ending. I custom order my desks handmade from a master carpenter that lives about 10 minutes from me. I'll take a picture of one of the things he made for me and post it here sometime in the next week. The quality of his work is FAR superior to my work. THAT is what we should try to emulate. Not "IF" you can do it... but "HOW" you do it.

In the town I live in most of the business owners use a local craftsman to do their work. We don't shop in large stores to get stuff. There's even a large Amish community near me that does great woodwork (I don't use their stuff because I think it's all political BullSchticks that they pay other people to use the roads instead of using the roads themselves and somehow escape taxes because of that... but I digress) and even build houses for people from the ground up. They have a lifestyle that equates to living what they do every day and get better at it because of it. (p.s. they're just as dishonest as the next guy, don't let the beards fool you!)

I'm really happy you're willing to hash this out because you have the exact opposite point of view from me. Please don't take my response as an attack on you but be willing to refute it and know that I'd rather you win me over to your side if possible because then the devs don't have to change a thing. From my point of view: right now it sucks and what you just explained sucks. Care to try to explain how it doesn't? Success in crafting should be obtained at a VERY low level... failure should be very rare very early on and with the most basic of tools. Expert skill is superior to tools used. Doesn't matter the trade. Perfect example: an amazing photographer that is a master at their work can use a disposable camera to take an amazing shot...

Recap - Questions I'm asking you (royal you that anyone can answer, even a dev!!!):
The new systems being put into play didn't create diversity they just created hurdles to make the current system harder and did so via success rate exclusively. How is that "better"?
How is failure to gain skills not playing the system directly?
How will the system ever feel invisible so the game is immersive if you are required to level through failure?
Are you happy with the fact an apprentice craftsman can make the same legendary stuff a grandmaster can make and just has a higher failure rate?
Wouldn't you be happier with a system that instead allows a specific benefit to people at a specific skill to make the exact same item and just make it better?
-In-Depth Example:
At level 1 carpentry I can make a bowstaff 50% of the time I try, if I use custom materials the benefits are lost
At level 20 carpentry I can make that bow with custom materials 50% of the time I try (this enhances the quality of the element)
At level 50 carpentry I can make that bowstaff with custom materials 95% of the time I try (this enhances the speed of production to the element)
At level 70 carpentry I can make that bowstaff with custom materials and a 10% chance to crit allowing me to add a second enhancement to the product (this enhances the quality of the production of the element)
At level 80 carpentry I can name that bowstaff whatever I want (Bowstaff of XYZ) which gives me notoriety for my work that I feel is superior
At level 90 carpentry I can modify a second element (20% chance to crit twice, 50% chance to crit once) creating an even better product for my buyers
At level 100 carpentry I can modify an already created element without excessive losses to get the benefits of a crit when they were not achieved before this... this would consume fuel and the crit element but not any of the base requirements. This would also allow me to rebrand the item. If I succeed then the item is recreated and the title "Master" is placed in front of it so it is known as a "Master Bowstaff of XYZ".

All items from level 1 should have makers marks. Any item that has a crit modifier should have history attached to it, at minimum, if not every item in the game.

So with this in-depth preview of an idea (haven't given this any thought I just typed it as it came to me so you're welcome to ignore all the flaws with what I'm saying here... it's an example) of progression that doesn't involve 100 levels of failure reduction... two more questions for you:
Do you think that the current system is still ideal for what this community will want for 15+ years of gaming?
Do you think it's the proper stepping stone to what they want?

 

I am guessing guilds will nominate one or two people who want to be full time crafters and have guildies donate gathering mats to help level them.

 

This has win all over it, vote one Violation !

 

No, I'd not want an apprentice to make the same stuff as a GM. Isn't that were all the other variation of items you can make comes into play later on when they do put it in?

Think it was mentioned somewhere (yes, I know, details always escape me) that they'd have different "levels" of the same stuff you could make depending on your mastery of your craft (at least that's what I thought I heard). So although, you the Sunday Carpenter, could make an office table that would suffice, a Louis XIV table you will not be making. Or maybe you will be making one but it's quality would be on the less-than-desired side? Like maybe your Louis will be colored blue?

 

No, this is not a 15 year life system, though it is most definitely a stepping stone towards it. From a software development perspective you almost always design a simple system before you design a complex system. Without that simple system, the complex one is apt to fail more times than if you had done the simple one first and take significantly longer to fix compared to fixing the same failings on a small system.

Until the SOTA team knew that crafting an iron/copper item worked, there was no point in coding for an alloy version of the same item. Until knowing items could be made, there was no point coding a critical mechanic into crafting. Until knowing the critical mechanic works, there is no point customizing how the critical mechanic interacts with different item types. Until critical impacts different items differently, there is no point adding variability to the critical on each item type...

Before now we have been testing if their base crafting system even worked right. Now we are testing if their crafting system can work right in a binary fashion even once the skill isn't an empty placeholder. After that hopefully we will expand to a nonbinary system which better imitates the realities that you described.

 

I think the problem here is the assumption that chance of success will be the only thing governed by skill and experience, when we still have yet to see the full gamut of crafting skills to come online.

 

When there are no fuels involved you just keep pressing "Craft" until you succeed. Happened with me last night while crafting some taming collars.

The nice benefit to this is you get more XP to craft the object as it fails again and again.

 

Whew - would have been terrible if it was like someone had said butchery was...

 

At Milling lvl90 + artisan cubit measure, the chance to turn raw wood into timber is 74%.

At such high level, I'd expect I can throw some random chunks of trees up in the air, and they fall down laser-precisely cut, already sandpapered, in a neat pile...

 

That's a wordy way to say "I think we're testing what you want" and I'm okay with that... but the point you're making is that we're testing it when I don't feel like we are. This itteration, if we were progressing toward the system I was talking about, would have introduced higher quality crafting stations to help with crit success rate... instead they took the time to rework all the crafting code to allow for success chance on everything and made it very equalized and not sloped. So people who start the game without the expert tools and expert crafting stations are going to suffer success rate instead of quality/crit. sucks. Anyway, I'll let this back and forth lay. Thanks for answering and explaining how you felt. It's good to see different points of view. Appreciate it. Have a great release weekend!

That is exactly what is in game right now. I know for sure that's not the only thing it's governing in the future but the fact that they took the time to rewrite code and implement this as an even slope at skill+tool+table+location = ????chance with skill=?60%?+tool=?10%?+table=?10%?+location=?10%? ????

It plays into everything... supply and demand time sink for grind and valuation of elements... the quantity of consumption adjustment across skill levels not being sloped means that it's that much longer and harder for new players to profit and that much more grinding they'll have to do. Just something to consider. When I give my feedback to the Portalarium team I like it to be extremely well thought out and objective. I don't like my feedback to be "I want this for me and this is why!" but rather "This is what I think will make the game better for everyone."

I've got them, the expert stuff, and I put them in a guild keep that we have in the center of my town so we're good I guess. OoV has been very good to each other and we have a very strong set of players that will ensure our members have this stuff. What about single player people not in guilds? What about small guilds that don't have everything ready? It'll be hard for them to compete I'd imagine. I don't know though. I haven't seen the future so you could be right that my assumptions are the only flaw here. I do see a road that has been traveled before (gathering skills, combat skills, now refining skills and production skills) and I'm using that as a basis for what I think is best and drawing upon an active community for their feedback so I can write up a nice "This is what you guys should do" and submit it.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond and question that though. I can definitely appreciate that we're pre-alpha and that systems are missing.

Seems to me that everyone is very welcoming to this system because the failures are granting experience gain to get them past failures. Do you feel that way?

@Themo Lock you made a comment like this... do you feel that way?

That's what I'm talkin' about! Laser guided saw missiles that slice wood in the air and it rains timber into piles of excellence! @Chris - make it so! LOL!

 

Pretty much yes, i find it hard to comment on the craft system yet knowing that there is huge change coming but i really do think top end gear should be hard to create and should be the product of high end crafters.

 

Easy Mode : OFF

 

Honestly, I wasn't really around much until Release 22... but I'm surprised the crafting system is as undeveloped as it currently is. I feel like it should have been here 8 or so releases ago. Also not sure what is with the insanely low success rates. I think someone was talking about having a 50% chance to make plate gloves with GM blacksmithing on an expert table with a prosperity hammer.

 

Simple table, any beginner craftsman can make it :

Intermediate table , requires a somewhat higher level of craftsmanship and can be done (with repeated tries) on entry level crafting table. But if you have a regular clientele that you need to create this table regularly for then an expert craftsman table is recommended.


But master craftsmen can make tables like the one below which obviously need master craftsman tables to do right.

 

I agree.

And I expect I will be totally unable to craft even a basic cotton sock, let alone a full suit of chiseled, riveted and enchanted plate armor.

But refining?

In how many ways I can turn raw wood into basic timber? How much experience I need? And especially, why at lvl90, I still have only 74% chance to do it well? I guess the asymptotic plateau should be hit far, far earlier.

I think the "tier" of materials (raw > refined mat > enhanced mat > components > assemblies > final item > further enchantment) should scale differently.

I'm all for giving masterful artisans the edge on crafting (*cough*and deathgrip on top tier market*cough*), but making insanely difficult and soul crushing boring to build a simple iron longsword for a noob would be doing a disservice to the low-end of game demographics.

Also, never forget SP Offline. Is every avatar playing the single player game supposed to grind to GM every harvesting/refining/crafting skill before he/she can be able to create (what's supposed to be) the best equipment? That may approach the thermal death of the universe, in amount of time needed...

 

I"d like to see guilds specialize. Explorer guilds that scout new areas, map them and gather raw materials & treasures. Artisan guilds that take the raw materials an craft them into high quality goods that are in demand. Scholar & academic guilds that compile all these knowledge into books and libraries. Because no one person or even a guild can do them all equally well. The increasing complexity in crafting will be ( I expect) be mirrored in combat & magic skills means that even ranger builds like mine will have to carefully select a few trees in each major skill family to specialize in. And that means crafting skills will be well behind those essential for exploration , combat & gathering.

 

My 890,458 Pooled Producer Exp yawns at the thought of more XP. More chances to use up that XP, however, and I get interested.

 

Overall, no. I do not appreciate punishing games. The focus should be on successes with left over resources and crits with bonuses on the crafted objects, not fuel and gold sinks that hurt the novice significantly and affect the master (who will likely have millions in gold) very little.

The systems need to be tested and redrawn to ensure that although the master will make the best gear they also must expend much more to get those results. A novice should have occasional failures but nothing like 5 in a row like I am seeing now.

I do not support the system including location as a consideration for crafting. It's going to be silly if we find a huddle of crafters in on town making boots and another huddle of crafters in another town making the best chest plate armor and then jump over to another area of the world to make the best obsidian staff. I mean, really? Add in time of day and you are just getting ridiculous.

Crafter level, table level, tool level should be the largest factors and in that order. Location makes sense as a requirement for making a couple items, but for success/crit chance? No. Time of day will make sense only for a magically crafted item - anything else is just hogwash.