Interesting (Splitting Single-Player from Multiplayer?)

I don't think the person you seem to be referring to was specifically giving single player feedback there, so I would suggest it's unfair to present it in such a light. 'More NPCs', practical or otherwise, reasonably presented or otherwise, was a proposed solution to the 'empty space' issue SotA has currently, in its online mode. It's been a few builds since I played SotA (the game gives me simulation sickness, so I can't play it for long without literally feeling sick), but I remember Ardoris feeling nothing like a bustling city. To me, it felt like a lot of dead space. I personally don't think more NPCs is the solution to that as I believe the game will have far too many already, but empty space is currently a problem both online and offline modes face.

As for the "this doesn't look like a single player game" argument, I'd say this stems from the list of unique features you've linked to a couple of times now. I think it's completely reasonable for people to say it doesn't look like a single player game...but with this caveat: if that list is the entirety of what distinguishes SP and MP.

I don't know that it is, but the developers have given me no reason to believe it is not. So it's still reasonable SP feedback, taken from that perspective.

I don't think anyone doubts that the devs are going to layer the narrative over their existing systems, or that those unique features will be implemented. I trust that will all happen, and that those capable and willing to give narrative feedback will do so. I am not one of those people, so my feedback opportunities are somewhat more limited -- though hopefully no less valid if I continue posting in good faith.

My current chief concern, which is hopefully apparent, is that those unique features will be insufficient on their own in satisfying those who were expecting a dedicated SP experience, that it will result in the Option 1 I posed previously in this thread (SP grafted on to MP scenario). That outcome, I believe, is what people fear when it comes to Portalarium making a 'good' (read: dedicated) single player game.

Another way of putting it is that I trust the devs are intending to make a good single player mode, which isn't entirely the same thing as a single player game.

Well, believe me when I say the frustration is not limited to yourself.

You might notice I have very few posts to my name, despite having signed up to this forum quite a while ago. I posted rarely in the past because nothing I was interested in in terms of development (story, quests, lore, SP mode) was being discussed. At all. Every time someone asked about narrative, we were told to be patient and wait. So I (and others) waited, and waited, and waited, and watched while other areas were, to our perception, lavished with attention and developer responses. With the possible exception of developers asking us how we thought the dialogue system should be implemented, one thread early last year (I think) on what features we'd like to see in SP, and another suggesting offline mode would have access to cash shop items, there was no attempt to engage us, keep our interest, or make us feel like we were anywhere near as valued as the MP backers. The vast majority of every email update we received was heavy with the marketing of online trappings, housing, POTs, and (for the last year or so) the promotion of online community events. I don't begrudge the online community any of these things, but it was frustrating to feel overlooked and seemingly undervalued for so long -- and always being told to be patient. That absolutely nothing could be shared with us for fear of spoilers. That things were being worked on, and just trust them.

I think that was unfair. I think it soured many attitudes towards the game, and the team, and made the situation worse on the SP quarter, bringing us to where we are today where frustrations are bubbling over. I don't think people are suggesting the developers won't put into place what they have promised...but like I said a bit earlier in this post, it's a bit more complex than that, and further compounded by differing opinions on the original intent of the Kickstarter pitch and media interviews that put a strong emphasis on SP.

I understand your frustrations. I can only ask that you try to understand mine. While it might not constitute constructive feedback, as such, it is made in good faith and thus hopefully not without value.

But...since all this is now very widely off-topic, it might be better to continue in another thread, if you wish to continue this discussion. As to your second post, I haven't forgotten it, but it's 3am. I'll try to get to it when I wake up.

 

I'll add to SoL's post here also; several of us were approached (and were also making pestering pains of ourselves ) towards providing written stories, books, lore info, etc for Shroud way back in the day when this was all getting going. The issue that was immediately brought up and has never been addressed, answered, or even clearly noticed has been "WHAT THE HECK IS THE OUTLINE WE SHOULD BE BASING THIS ON?!", since (and let's talk repetitive, since I've said this in numerous threads), if you want a consistent and immersive lore, you need to have some damn structure that sets it up. I (and several other passionate people who love this stuff) want to actually base our work on the canon and lore, so it's not just a hodgepodge mess of nonsense.

I love fan fiction. I love storytelling. I won't name it here, but several of us Dragons ran and played on a private server based entirely on the Ultima series universe and its storylines, and it was freaking awesome. Was it canon? Oh hell no (though, amusingly, UO -did- steal our history timeline for an "official" update, so maybe we are canon after all ) That's just the basics that people have asked for since Day One, and still can't get an actual website update or posting about, let alone getting into any actual quests, story threads, or anything else that could be potentially spoiled. I'll also point to the Blade of the Avatar novella (which I have read repeatedly, and enjoyed so far) that also has not exactly been explained how it fits into the current Shroud mold and history.

I don't want and need the spoilers, and I know for myself, I get annoyed when someone claims that's why the Devs can't release anything. But seriously, anyone who's ever played the Ultima games in the past, just take a second to look at the damn manuals. They were AMAZING with just the background, artwork, and details about the everyday world of Britannia, just so that when your character popped into town, you had some bearing to get rolling. If that hasn't been hammered out by now, then there's obviously a MAJOR writing issue going on; I honestly don't know, since we haven't been told or shown it yet.

Maybe that's one of the reasons I've been so harsh on the concept and exposure on POTs in general myself on how they fit into the story; I'm all for community roleplay, but don't wave that around like that will be "official" canon story, or then we WILL be basically playing a MMO game with some SP elements, and not a dedicated actual game.

 

So, you're kind of all over the map on that post.

I'll try to summarize:
- Not enough canon.
- Not enough communication about how the lore we know fits into the past and present canon.
- POTs are bad if they touch canon. (Btw, the devs said that POTs will not be a part of the main storyline for EP1)

I like lore as much as anyone. I've read Blade of the Avatar a few times too. One of the main reasons I'm here is because of Tracy Hickman. His contribution to all this really sealed the deal for me. As I've stated numerous times in other posts, I've never played a single player Ultima in my life. When I was growing up, I had friends that played it and loved it. But I was a Bard's Tale guy. I wanted to name MY character. I didn't have any want to be "the Avatar" whatever that was. And I wanted to create my own party of friends. I didn't want to pal around with RG's friends. And as much as I like to read the history of fantasy worlds, I like to forge my own path, make my own fate. I like to put my own footprint into the world and that's why I'm here.

When this game is 20 years old I want people to say "Yeah I remember that Baron Drocis guy". I don't want to be a nameless pawn in someone else's adventure where the canon is gospel and nothing I do matters. Who's the best player in WOW? Who's the best crafter in Archeage? What's the most amazing story that ever came out of EQ? I've searched online to find these types of things out and I can't find anything. Why? Because the games are not made for players to advance the story, the games are made for players to grind through the story. The same thing can be said (probably more so) for single player games. Is my experience in Wasteland II really any different than yours would be? No. It's a linear path where only a few basic outcomes are possible. There's no way for me to do anything that impacts you, we're siloed in different worlds with parallel outcomes.

There's no doubt that the single player OFFLINE experience is going to hinge on the depth of the lore and the story. But that NARRATIVE hasn't been layered in yet which in turn is why Single Player OFFLINE hasn't been turned on yet. So yes, the spoiler excuse really does apply.

As for POTs, I don't like them all. I don't like all the owners. I'm sure some of the POTs will be down right bad and I'll wish they didn't exist. Surly some people will feel that way about my POT. But what an incredible opportunity for players (not just POT owners) to make their mark on the world and HOPEFULLY someday the official lore. I have to tell you, I don't always like the official lore of games anymore than I like fan fiction. Sometimes the original lore is pretty bad. So I'm open to the idea that player contributions to the lore, over time, might be the best option we have. And whenever I hear someone generalize all fan fiction as being bad, it upsets me. I don't think my Rats Nest lore is bad. I think it needs some work and I need to keep adjusting it as more information comes out, but overall I'm really proud of the direction my POT is going in. I've had music created for it (by the Bard's of Poet's Circle), artwork created for it (by Denis Loubet), and I've built a website for it (www.novianratsnest.com) that I think accurately integrates with the world of New Britannia about as well as any POT in the game. So why can't those types of contributions be a part of the future canon? If the answer is only "because you're a player". I think that's a horrible answer.

 

That's a decent enough summary. I'll also point out, there IS no past canon (except for the Blade of the Avatar novella which needs to get clarified), since this is a brand new story.

Just speaking for you in this case in terms of your work, I recognize and appreciate when folks are putting forth the effort. Probably one of my biggest peeves even about the whole POT thing is that they are completely unmoderated by Portalarium, which seems REALLY silly to me. Of course, I'd love to see player ideas and stories be included into the lore if that's what the Dev decided to do. How are they planning to do that though? Especially when OFFLINE (as you mentioned) will have no bearing or point for anything online players will be doing? Along with that, who is setting or checking the guidelines of what or how it all fits together? Again, obviously, your connection to the Ultima series and mine are vastly different (which is also a similar discussion my wife and I have, where I'm interested as hell, and she never played the games, so getting her involved is moot), which also is why our expectations for our gaming experiences are also across the map from each other.

Again, until we see and get more information about that aspect of the game, there's going to be irate and concerned Single Player players out there. We can see and experience tangible progress in terms of the graphics, worldbuilding, combat systems, crafting, etc while the development has been going on. Story? Narrative? Nope. And that's what has people worked up after 2 years when we are asking for the basics of a traveler's guide to the world of New Britannia.

 

I don't think they're currently planning to do that.

I'm hoping they will change their mind for Episode II. I could see a process where player content is added to EP2 as part of the "official" story world as recognition of good work. Pax Lair and some of its key contributors seem like they would foot that bill. I also think the BMC and others might be deserving of some type of recognition for their impact on Novia. It's not just large guilds and POTs though, I think individual players should have a chance to integrate with the lore as well. It may be very subtle, maybe they're mentioned during the backstory of a quest. It's not important to the completion of the quest, but the "character" is immortalized as a recognizable part of the world. Thus making the line between NPC and Player more blurred. Just as Lord British and Darkstarr are NPC's in the Offline version of the game, I don't see any reason why Winfield couldn't be that way too. Is there a risk that some immortalized player could commit a crime or say things in real life that would impact the reputation of the game? Yes, but I'd suggest that risk is the same for any real person including LB, DS, Lum, etc...

 

Sorry if this is seen as just complaining again but another problem I see is that compromises have to be made so that SotA can be an MMO and a SP RPG. BUT those compromises are done at the expense of the single player part imho.

Examples:
- We have a combat system that is clearly made for an MMO - a hotbar, whereas in a single player game the combat would make more sense if it would be active and real time like in Skyrim for example.
- We have a magic system that is clearly made for PvP - we don't really need reagents, we don't need to learn spells to use them tactically... Just fire away in the PvP arena.
- We have large open spaces - especially in cities so that many players can share the space - those spaces are empty in single player mode
- Cities are hubs so that players can trade there and get their lots for housing - Where is the unique personality of the cities? Where are the really cool looking cities, that are not on flat ground with houses lined up one next to the other? Where are different districts like slums? Where are interesting buildings like sanitariums or museums where interesting things can happen? Why is nothing going on in the cities - for example wars between guards and bandits or someone trying to overthrow the leader etc.?Because they are hubs.
- Scenes are in the game for grinding purposes. Did you encouner one scene without any enemies? Where we have to just explore or do some detective work?
- The dialogue interface (my favourite) is a chat - very immersive and atmospheric for a single player RPG... NOT!
- It was said that we cannot get quests that are caused by events like a thief robbing a guard and trying to flee due the MMO nature of the game. The single player aspect suffers from this because we are missing out on cool and interesting events.
- Too few NPCs in big cities due to "technical limitations" - meaning, because there will be other players running around, we cannot have too many NPCs, too.
- Too few objects in scenes because of the limitation of the MMO part - a single player offline game could have real dense vegetation in the woods and many objetcts in cities and scenes.
- The interface of the game is made to please MMO players so that they get every information they need/want - this is not an interface a single player gamer would want to have in a single player game.
- No sleeping to advance time because it doesn't make sense in a MMO and would take too much time to implement for offline mode.
- Companion system? We know nothing about it - will companions just be human pets or will we get a real Dragon Age like companion system? Will this also take too much time to implement? Time they could use for more MMO features?
- Dropping items everywhere and moving items? Nope, doesn't make sense in the MMO part - maybe for offline but maybe it takes too much time. Time they could use for more MMO features...
- Interactivity like in Ultima 7? Nowhere near it...

All those compromises are made at the expense of the single player part which ultimately leads to an inferior single player game.
And therefore - to get back to the first post - SotA could never stand on it's own as a stand alone single player RPG - not without some serious improvements and changes.

 

That's a good point. I'll also bring it up again with one of the questions that was answered during the Hangout; Lord British -IS- in Shroud as a NPC (or will be ), but will not be in Episode 1 (presumably, he's on another continent at this point). This also goes back to what was asked 2 years ago when Port was wanting player submissions: give us the background/outline of what we're setting our stories and things in, and the reference info, and people will respond (and have been anxious to do so for a long time)

I'm all for them recognizing and including it, since it's their story. My main point (and that of others) is that we don't want to be told "well, just take everything as canon, who cares?!" We do.

 

I'm kind of in agreement with you here. Throughout history, there's always people that are doing weird stuff. I mean, there are organizations right now that believe the world is flat and this whole "round world" thing is a big hoax. Those people are still "canon" in the real world, they're just crazy. So I really don't have a problem treating the actions of all players (even the crazy ones) as canon in this world. I just think that the cream will rise to the top and the actions we as a community celebrate and recognize are the ones that we write history books about or create NPC's out of (or whatever). Ya know? And if Portalarium has to lead that charge by being the gatekeeper of player content that makes it into EP2, I have no problem with that.

 

I just want to bookmark this idea right here. This very thing has been promised a couple of different times, and it is important to me.

 

That's funny because you're one of the people I immediately thought of when I wrote that.

 

We need Frank at the New Britannian Mint for certain

 

Ah, I see what you mean. Obviously DLC is everywhere, but I haven't heard of a game that split itself to have MP mode as DLC, and thought you had. I was curious to see if it had worked in other extant cases. All I've heard of is Star Citizen, but as someone else pointed out the SP and MP modes are very distinct so it makes sense to treat them separately.

Since we haven't seen SP mode yet for SotA, we don't know if it will share a similar distinction. But I agree that however it turns out, there's nothing stopping Portalarium from doing as you propose.