Lord British's Open Challenge...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Time Lord, Jun 12, 2016.

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Rate them least worst deed to most worst deed...

  1. Popeye was the most worst deed

    10.3%
  2. Popeye was the least worst deed

    25.6%
  3. Olive Oil was the most worst deed

    23.1%
  4. Olive Oil was the least worst deed

    15.4%
  5. Wimpy was the most worst deed

    20.5%
  6. Wimpy was the least worst deed

    23.1%
  7. Brutus was the most worst deed

    41.0%
  8. Brutus was the least worst deed

    2.6%
  9. Chris was the most worst deed

    20.5%
  10. Chris was the least worst deed

    15.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

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    Then again the greatest potential of all humanity might be immeasurable... to infinity and beyond.

    If we saw the beauty and perfection in each unique individual and come together in harmony and peace (whatever that looks like because it might not be what we expect), yet it would be amazing.
    Perhaps it isn't just a dream.
     
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  2. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    *Takes Off His Caddellite Helm*

    I tend to agree with you and disagree with you on the meaning of the questions of the thread. I think that love is a perfectly reasonable topic intertwined within this, yet I don't think that feeling is required answer the question of love, which I'll post in an all inclusive about below.

    I forgive you :)

    Wimpy and Chris are clearly at opposing views, Wimpy does not condone the behavior of Olive Oil, while Chris does not condone the behavior of Popeye. *(for whatever reasons they both may have)

    From the Shrine of Singularity, I refer back to "The Book of Circles"...

    "All begins with the three principles: Control, Passion and Diligence. From Control springs Direction. From Passion springs Feeling. From Diligence springs Persistence. But these three virtues are no more important than the other five: Control combines with Passion to give Balance. Passion combines with Diligence to yield Achievement. And Diligence joins with Control to provide Precision. The absence of Control, Passion and Diligence is Chaos. Thus the absence of the principles points toward the seventh virtue, Order. The three principles unify to form Singularity. This is the eighth virtue, but it is also the first, because within Singularity can be found all the principles, and thus all the virtues. A circle has no end. It continues forever, with all parts equally important in the success of the whole. Our society is the same. It too continues forever, with all members (and all virtues) equal parts of the unified whole."

    :rolleyes: OK, I admit it! "I'm a Chatbot" :( and I'm governed by the principle laws of the "Now" !;)!

    I tend to disagree with you here on the basis of separating sex from love... I'll elaborate...

    ~Consummation as the Union?~

    Precognitive known prerequisite empirical knowledge...
    They are all friends, except the relationship between Popeye and Olive Oil which it is known that they love each other. This information was announced, conferring it as a confining set of elements before considering the question.

    Knowledge presented from the characters...
    Olive Oil: Wants to visit Popeye now.
    Brutus: Wants to be happy about helping Olive, in exchange for sex.
    Olive Oil: Says she'll "skip that" and asks Wimpy.
    Wimpy: Doesn't want to be involved (for whatever reason)
    Olive Oil: has sex with Brutus.
    Brutus: Takes her in his boat to the other side (no mention of him returning back across the river)
    Olive Oil: Tells Popeye what she'd done (without any regard to any consequence mentioned)
    Popeye: Is outraged and spurns her and doesn't want to see her ever again.
    Olive Oil: Tells Chris what happened, thinks Popeye is an outrageous idiot and then beats Popeye up.

    They are all known to be friends, yet the defining point of love between being a friend and being a love must have an difference. That difference within the given story question, is defined by Popeye as being consummation. Olive Oil's can be seen within the ethics of Ultima... Yet I'll attempt to apply them to all of our characters and see what comes of it o_O...

    ~Ultima Virtue Applied Ethics~
    (I will attempt to apply each as they come up within the list below to the characters they best fit)

    Humility
    From Humility comes Spirituality
    From Spirituality comes Truth, Love and Courage
    Truth and Love combine to bring Justice
    Love and Courage combine to bring Sacrifice
    From Justice comes Honesty
    From Sacrifice comes Valor
    Justice and Sacrifice combine to bring Compassion
    Honesty, Compassion and Valor combine to bring Honor

    ~From Infinity springs the Virtues of Humility and Order~ (the transitioning point between virtues) *The Ultima's virtues of the Gargoyles, from the book of circles*

    From Order comes Singularity
    From Singularity comes Control, Passion and Diligence
    From Control and Passion comes Balance
    From Passion and Diligence comes Achievement
    From Balance and Achievement comes Feeling
    From Balance comes Direction
    From Achievement comes Persistence
    Direction Feeling and Persistence brings Precision


    What Characteristics Did Each Display Out of a Possible (16)? +1 Infinity..
    Olive Oil: Humility, Truth, Love, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor, Passion, Feeling, Persistence (9)
    Brutus: Truth, Honesty, Singularity, Control, Passion, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Feeling, Direction, Persistence, Precision (12) +Infinity (13)
    Wimpy: Truth, Honesty, Order, Singularity, Control, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Direction, Persistence, Precision (11) +Infinity (12)
    Popeye: Spirituality, Truth, Love, Justice, Honesty, Honor, Order, Control, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Feeling, Direction, Persistence, Precision (15) +Infinity (16)
    Chris: Truth, Courage, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor, Compassion, Control, Passion, Feeling, Direction, Precision (11)

    So, By my application of what each displayed within their character when applying the all Ultima's Virtues;
    Worst Deed to Least Worst Deed:
    1) Olive Oil (9)
    2) Chris (11)
    3) Wimpy (12)
    4) Brutus (13)
    5) Popeye (16)

    When compared with my self answer;
    Wimpy (The only character that changes it's place)
    Olive Oil
    Chris
    Brutus
    Popeye


    RG: "friendly, boring and some people you may disagree with" o_O

    But it makes for an interesting examination... in all of Ultima's Ethics in Virtue ;)!'
    How would you rate them by all the Ultima Virtues they displayed?
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
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  3. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    Animals are not people so this line of thinking isn't a fair comparison.

    Exactly, given what little we know of the situation which tells us he was acting out of anger.
     
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  4. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Never said it was. :)
     
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  5. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

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    Seeing it from Timelord's perspective has value, and I like it. For me once behavior became obligation due to fear of Judgment, then it became tiresome hard work. The point of ethics was lost and the goal came down to trying to earn a perfect karma for fear of the negative consequences. This resulted in death figuratively since I no longer could do what I wanted but fear made me a robot. Furthermore it separated others into good and bad so that the judgment I was feeling inside was directed at others I thought were doing worse than myself. Also I had to figure out why karma would give me a bad time every once in a while when I was doing so well. So I had to cone up with explanations such as karma is teaching me this or that... ultimately I just felt doomed.

    However being released from the obligation of a moral code, I discovered also freedom to do anything without judgment. I could look at porn or have sex with prostitutes if I so desired, rob banks all without fear of any karma negatively effecting me. The only account I had to keep clear was to other people. Cheat on my wife and she would be cranky. Do wrong to a person, try to make ammends. Yet if we can overcome fear of judgment we can overcome fear of how others think of us as well. Perhaps this freedom is needed to come back to a sound mind. Then we can see that perhaps our heart is kinder than most give it credit for. No wonder since people under the burden of fearful obligation fail to fulfill it seem to conclude the heart is corrupt and distorted. But we who were under the obligation also recognized the good behavior was good. Perhaps taking the obligation away we still recognize we naturally have it all.

    I won't change anything Time Lord said. It is quite profound. Without obligation or any judgment, the only thing left then is to determine what is the most benificial. This is where spirituality Time Lord spoke of becomes visible. Without it we are just animals. The spiritual mind the mind controlled by the spirit values all the principles of virtue, then humility comes naturally not though obligation or under duress. The enlightened avatar then sows the seeds of this grace everywhere. We all have this potential.
     
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  6. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    An interesting question. Each of the characters involved made a choice that they were perfectly entitled to make (whether one approves of it or not), with the exception of Chris, who was not entitled to inflict physical violence.
    Although Chris is not the person that I dislike the most in this scenario, he is in my opinion the one who committed the worst deed. (But he is probably the one that I like the most.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  7. Phydra

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    People ARE animals, however, so that line of thinking is just as "fair" as any other.

    Indeed, if you listen to some of the talks from the sciences of late, particularly neurology and neuro-biology , you find that not only are we beginning to discover just how deep our physiology goes (the affects and impacts upon the conscious mind ... or the lack thereof... and 'how it all works'), the upshot of which is that, while we certainly have evolved from the apes, we are far from being truly different from them on any measurable scale of animal behavior (which makes the reality that they actually had to call it "anthropology" or "sociology" or "neurology" because it would just... stick... in... the... craw to have to admit we could have easily fit in any number of animal study rubrics were it not for our tendency to ... well.... go ape-****... if anyone dare just up and say that we're very little different indeed from the animals).

    What has any of that to do with this? Well, it is not that great a leap anymore to say that this kind of "test" and the entire underpinning of what it seeks to espouse is a highly generalized, culturally, and societally narrow view and version of what humanity "should be"; essentially crafting and offering a game that seeks to challenge players not to just come play a game, but to test themselves against the inflexibility of it all and discover the difference between how they see themselves, how the game informs its sees them (Oracle), and how others playing see them.

    There's only one problem: Today's gaming market and the audiences of tomorrow are going to care increasingly less for "our version" of deep epistemological and philosophical exploration as "fun".

    Add to this that, as with every generation, there comes a time when the things most near and dear in ideology, philosophy, and pretty much every other lane from music to movies are no longer "ours"; they belong to our children, our grand-children... we don't understand it because they are having an entirely different experience than we did IN LIFE.

    Come on, I know every dang one of you has some elderly relative that you love dearly (or perhaps only tolerate, who knows)... and when they get on a tear about some story from their youth, or try to tell you the MOST HILARIOUS JOKE EVER, and you're just... cringing. You don't mean to, but... you do.

    Well, now we're the "elders", so I'm not sure why it seems so often that people fall right into the old perspective of their childhood and are just so dang surprised when children of all ages and most young adults simply don't come running to relive old game re-enactments.

    The cycle turns, of course. The themes always return, eventually; because as a species, we're are and continue to be shackled by our physiology. While we range well and heartily in the minuscule box we label "knowledge", it is only the visionaries and stewards of communication who have the rudeness to continue to present us with the histories from which we are so loathe to learn that the groaning rejection has become a litany, a mantra.

    The damn thing rings in your head and you'll complete the sentence without even trying, just watch:

    HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF BECAUSE.....​

    See?

    Anywhoo.... I like this topic. I can see the underlying theme of planting seeds and I know the history of "it all" well enough to know that it takes a special kind of crazy to step up and ask to be Sisyphus because, dang it, you're pretty damn sure you can make it to the top with that silly pebble.

    I'm just tired myself. So I can only begin to imagine how the folks in Austin must feel.
     
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  8. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    What Characteristics Did Each Display Out of a Possible (16)? +1 Infinity... (Let's question all Ultima Ethics separately)...

    Narrowing the field of Virtues to only the (8) Ultima Virtues displayed by each of them... :confused:!'
    The oddest part I found when pitting each against a game grinder of Ultima Virtues, is that when I deducted the virtues of the Gargoyle, "they all scored quite differently" o_O

    From "worst to least worst" before...

    Olive Oil: Humility, Truth, Love, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor, Passion, Feeling, Persistence (9)
    Brutus: Truth, Honesty, Singularity, Control, Passion, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Feeling, Direction, Persistence, Precision (12) +Infinity (13)
    Wimpy: Truth, Honesty, Order, Singularity, Control, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Direction, Persistence, Precision (11) +Infinity (12)
    Popeye: Spirituality, Truth, Love, Justice, Honesty, Honor, Order, Control, Diligence, Balance, Achievement, Feeling, Direction, Persistence, Precision (15) +Infinity (16)
    Chris: Truth, Courage, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor, Compassion, Control, Passion, Feeling, Direction, Precision (11)

    From "worst, to least worst" after deducting the virtues of the Gargoyle...

    Brutus: Truth, Honesty (2)
    Wimpy: Truth, Honesty (2)
    Popeye: Spirituality, Truth, Love, Justice, Honesty (5)
    Olive Oil: Humility, Truth, Love, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor (6)
    Chris: Truth, Courage, Sacrifice, Honesty, Valor, Compassion (6)

    As our gaming mechanics restrict us in much the same way, it then causes me truly to wonder how we will each choose to answer such questions of virtue within our game...
    ~Time Lord~o_O
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  9. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    I read through all 4 pages of comments, and I think it's interesting that so many people think Chris beat up Brutus. He beat up Popeye, not Brutus!

    As we are asked to rate their naughty acts, bad to worst, I feel it's important to relate each act to an anti-virtue:

    Wimpy - Dastardly(Cowardice) - They are all described as friends in the story, so he isn't 'indifferent'. The Dastardly soul will not do anything that anyone may disagree with, out of fear for the consequences. In this case, he seems afraid to help Olive Oil, most likely in fear of Brutus.

    Olive Oil - Wrong - The action of sleeping with Brutus she knew to be wrong, but in pursuit of getting across the river, she did it anyway, regardless of the consequences.

    Brutus - Hythloth - For such a soul, there is no reason to ever pursue any higher ideal than personal gain, material security or sensual pleasure. No regard for spirituality, Brutus bargains for the sensual pleasure of sleeping with Olive Oil.

    Popeye - Despise - His lack of compassion due to feeling emotionally scarred by Olive Oil caused him to spurn her and never want to see her again.

    Chris - Pride - Looks at Popeye's actions and feels he is better than Popeye. His arrogance causes him to be intolerant of Popeye's actions, rather than putting himself in Popeye's place, and trying to be understanding of the situation.

    Hythloth is a great lack of all the principals, so I rate Brutus' act as the worst.

    Chris' Pride shows a lack in the foundation of the virtues, that of humility. Without this vital ingredient, Chris' actions will fall flat of their virtuous intent, and like a confused Anakin lashing out at the Jedi who don't understand him, this can result in devastating consequences.

    Popeye's Despise, and Wimpy's Dastardly Cowardice, I rate equally, for each is lacking in one of the three principals.

    Olive Oil I rate as the least bad. She showed love, courage, and honesty. Her wrong-doing was unjust, yes, but she was being coerced by Brutus, and felt like she had no other choice. She's the only one to acknowledge that what she did was wrong, and regretted her action.

    Wow, that felt good to analyze. Thanks for sharing @TimeLord, and @LordBritish!
     
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  10. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I beg to differ. By that logic a cat is the same as a horse because they're both animals. A rectangle is not a square even though a square is rectangle etc etc.. It doesn't go both ways.

    As for the rest of that argument.. let's just say I couldn't disagree more and leave it at that.
     
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  11. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

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    good point. a cat is a predator and a horse is ... what the heck is a horse? is it a hearding animal? I guess. Well either way most horses I met live in little wooden stalls with a food bucket and some hay.

    However to say we aren't animals is also kind of wierd too. We definitely have issues that other animals don't deal with. I wonder if that has something to do with communication???

    An interesting article I read recently was about a study that seems to indicate that the Color Blue was the most recient color the Human Animal was able to see. The interesting part is that having a word for that color seemed to coincide with the ability to see it. The word for blue didn't show up in any written texts for quite some time after humans were civilized. No mention of the blue skys and waters etc. I don't remember the exact era but it was like the rise of egypt or something.

    They tested this using some tribe that currently had no word for blue and they showed them pictures of different shapes and colors and they couldn't tell the differnce between blue and something else. They asked to pick out which one was different and there would be something as clear as 3 green squares and 1 blue square, and they couldn't see the difference. So having a word and seeing it seems to go hand in hand. Also they said that Russians had several words for different types of blue and they had much better accuracy in telling the colors apart than other people.

    Not sure if this is relevant or not, but communication seems to be a big deal when it comes to psychology. Perhaps it is much less complex if we didn't have to think with words. One thing is for sure we wouldn't have to make decisions based upon the words of others.
     
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  12. Bowen Bloodgood

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    What I said.. was animals aren't people. Which isn't the same.
     
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  13. Phydra

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    In The Descent of Man, Darwin wrote: "There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties" and that all the differences are "of degree, not of kind". His extensive documentation of emotional similarities (and how that contributes to the assertion he makes) are thoroughly presented.

    Louis Leakey, famed paleoanthropologist and archaeologist echoes this sentiment: “Now we must redefine ‘tool’, redefine ‘man’, or accept chimpanzees as humans.” (Context: Disproving the notion that only humans use tools or that tools are some unique indicator of our "specialness".) I'd link some of his papers, but given the topic, no one will read them. If you're really interested, however, your favorite search engine can assist you. ;)

    There are books on the matter, albeit highly generalized for the layman. There are even resolved legal challenges now on the books.

    The information I presented wasn't "my opinion", it was a summary of research and literal fact. Within the academic, science, and research communities, this is far from a new idea.

    So, frankly, that you disagree is kind of irrelevant to whether or not it's an accurate statement of "real things that are scientifically studied and reported upon in the real world".... sorry.
     
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  14. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    :oops:~Our Animal Emulation~
    Animal behavior can be helpful, when we choose the right animal to emulated at the right time to emulate it...
    [​IMG]
    Yet often times, we don't know that we are, or have the choice of emulating them...
    Which becomes a matter of who is emulating who... o_O
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
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  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Darwin also thought the inside of cells had simply plasma and said that if an irreducibly complex systems existed in biology (which by the way they do) that his theories would fall apart. I'd hardly call him an authority on higher mental faculties. These 'facts' as you claim are still highly disputed in scientific circles. And at this stage we're WAY off topic.

    BTW..even otters use rocks as tools.
     
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  16. Spoon

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    ???
    If so you have a definition of "human" which differs from that of contemporary biology and which most likely is not derived from a scientific view but rather a religious or political one.
    The taxonomy of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is well established as part of the Kingdom of Animalia.
    There has been lots of discussion between how many kingdoms there should be and whether cladistics or systematics should be the way forward. But there has not been any serious discussion for over a hundred years whether Homo Sapiens Sapiens is Animalia or not.
    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Animal
    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Human

    I'd disagree.

    Human virtues in SotA and history are showcased and discussed through fables for a reason. That is because from classical times onwards we have recognized that some human traits, feelings and behavior also reflect the traits, feelings and behavior of animals. Thus when we need to make an abstract argument about virtues cultures from all over the world and of different religions have used animals as examples. What does a dogs loyalty say about human loyalty?
    The animlistic nature of some of our most human feelings is the stuff of sagas and legends, just like it is and shall be in Novia.
     
  17. Bowen Bloodgood

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    When the topic of discussion changes from rate the actions of 4 people in a ficticious scenario to evolution and equating people with animals I think we've strayed just a bit.

    Name me one non-human animal then who would demand sex for transport? Or would end a relationship over infidelity. Or would otherwise exhibit the behavior from the scenario.
     
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  18. Isaiah

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    This may be why it is on topic. Perhaps the fact we have seemingly better forms of communication have actually caused a new barrier for us. If we had no written word and no way to communicate rules, then we would not have any problemhaving sex with someone we meet just because it was a good idea at the time.

    The 60s had some of this going on, with the whole love the one youre with sort of thing.

    Here's a good example.... nudity! The only thing that makes nudity shameful is our ridgid rules, and cultural beliefs. No human baby is born with this concept. In fact babies are not born with many concepts. They have their natural instincts just like every other animal.

    While we definitely benifit from our sophisticated communication we also ought to do away with the customs that nolonger have any benifit for us. Gay marriage is a great example. Why was that ever a problem? So olive having sex with Brutus is a sin why, says who? Prostitution is a crime why? Unless it is human slavery and not the choice of the person who cares? The same people who argue that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion because it is their body might have serious reservations about prostitution... yet the same argument could be used? If abortion is ok because it is her body, then why isn't sex okay? If you say because you're doing it for money, then does that not also condemn all the people who sell services for money (Gardners use their body at leadt as much as a prostitute if not more.)
     
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  19. Isaiah

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    So actually where this is going is that slavery is bad because it is harmful or forcing someone against their will.

    If only more people saw that religious law and strict moral customs are exactly that.
    Now all jokes aside I believe this is a trustworthy statment...

    "The greatest threat to the world is not unrighteousness, it is selfrigheousness."
     
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  20. Bowen Bloodgood

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    That's an IF that doesn't exist. Why fabricate theoretical points to pursue a line of thought that goes well beyond the scope of the intended topic?

    And I dare say the direction you seem to want to go isn't really appropriate here. We may as well be talking religion and politics at this point.. which would only serve to get the thread moderated and locked. Or at least it couldn't go anywhere else should anyone openly explain why they disagree with you.
     
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