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Taming nerf fix and new focus drain problem

Discussion in 'Release 33 Feedback Forum' started by Aliana Berry, Aug 27, 2016.

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  1. Birne Gilmore

    Birne Gilmore Avatar

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    Even if this feeling seems reasonable we are still not "in the mind" of the devs to understand their decissions. May be that would be different if they don't just post release notes but also comment their decissions, but to get such behavior is a high hope for sure ^^ ... I can imagine that they also think of the perspective of how much effect the pet has and want to find a balance ... and in this process they begin to tear stuff down a lot at first to raise it later till most are satisfied. On this way we don't get several nerfs after each other (which would lead to frustration a lot and often) but one or two hard ones (which are still frustrating, but limited in time) and then get happier and happier over the further process again. And to think of the power of animals: My Elder Wolf which eats up ~50% of my focus makes more damage then my 2-handed polearm attacks (just basic attacks without skills) so I think that is a nice output. Of cause to be left with only 20% or less of focus (like in your case) is quite harsh and unbalanced ... but that is to be changed in the future - And I'm sure they will take care of it ;) .. Until then try a smaller pet ... don't has to be a chicken, but may be just one or two steps down :p
     
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  2. Purefalcon

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    you are right, everyone has their "wish" how it should be, but noone realy knows what exactly will be - probably not even the devs.
    The frustrating thing about it is, that the tamer community had a very easy solution for the problem - minimum requirements for tamed stuff - which would have solved the main problem and given way to finetuning.
    But instead, it becomes something completly different.
    Focus cost is a very nice way to restrict the usage of other trees in combination with taming, and that needs a little finetuning.
    There was no need to reduce pet strength, tho - increase in focus cost would have been enough to achieve that.
    Taming has so many disadvantage compared to other combat trees already, be it cost, killtime, management of a pet + petpathing, skillups with 15 minute cooldown (even if you get it down to 5 mins.. its still gonna take a REALY long time to level up), focus cost, etc.
    The tamers know those, thats why the uproar is happening - other people just bought a pet and thought "WTF OP" - i understand that those players say "balance is needed".
    That of course adds insult to injury for tamers.

    Not sure about polearm, but my obsidian wolf crits for 20 now (with nearly 400 points in taming), my bow, on the other hand, hits fully charged for 25 up to 110 with crits. (Both single targe only, tho)
    And beeing too slow to even follow and attack any npc, it wount even work as a dot - for a ranged class that is kiting.

    Overall fazit: balancing this way will take quiet a long time, during which taming will be far less fun to play = far less people will use it.

    As for fine tuning, the focus cost, especialy at higher lvls will simply be not bearable. Not even if you force tamers into the focus/int tree.
    That can be tuned with the channel skill to reduce the cost (which would open up the min/max problem once more - but at least, people would have to invest heavily into the tree to use it in addition to other combat trees)

    After the recent change, the wolf can barely stand its ground on 3skull areas, tho.
    Nothing compared to me killing 5 skull areas twice as fast as he can in 3skull, but it slowly goes into the right direction.
    (with nearly same skillpoint investment, archery = taming, but additional skills like bonus movespeed helps archery, while it doesnt help taming)
     
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  3. Shade Cido

    Shade Cido Avatar

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    Well, I can certainly understand why Tamers are feeling disliked by the Devs.
    After the Test Server was updated with R33, tamers were screaming on the Dev+ QA forum saying that Taming was broken. Certain high level tamers got lots of the information regarding Pet Level/Summoning/Taming etc, and posted this feedback on the QA forums, with full details of what may be a problem and why taming was broken. This information was completely ignored with no feedback from the Devs whatsoever on these issues, these concerns were ignored and the Release was rolled out Live with Taming still broken.

    Tamers then went onto the Discussion forums following the release, still screaming that taming wasn't working properly. After a few days, we got quite a patronising post (in my opinion) - from Chris stating 'we had misunderstood' what was happening with Taming, accompanied with a Picture of a 'God Mode' Spider with 500HP+ as proof that taming was fine.

    After further posts by tamers stating again the stats of summoned creatures and the issues involved...Chris finally (begrudingly imo) admitted that Taming was indeed broken and that they had messed up the math.....after this mistake was patched - all they seem to do is buffed the Level of the pet by massively increasing Focus Drain thus still making Taming pretty much useless.

    Sorry but after this whole fiasco in R33 I can certainly understand why some people think the taming profession is disliked by the Devs, especially as we have had no Feedback from the Devs again on the Focus drain issue.
     
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  4. agra

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    R32 pet auto attack damage:

    Average hit damage: 21.10
    Damage value 12 count is 11 5.12%
    Damage value 13 count is 11 5.12%
    Damage value 14 count is 18 8.37%
    Damage value 15 count is 13 6.05%
    Damage value 16 count is 6 2.79%
    Damage value 17 count is 17 7.91%
    Damage value 18 count is 14 6.51%
    Damage value 19 count is 8 3.72%
    Damage value 20 count is 13 6.05%
    Damage value 21 count is 10 4.65%
    Damage value 22 count is 8 3.72%
    Damage value 23 count is 5 2.33%
    Damage value 24 count is 6 2.79%
    Damage value 25 count is 11 5.12%
    Damage value 26 count is 9 4.19%
    Damage value 27 count is 13 6.05%
    Damage value 28 count is 7 3.26%
    Damage value 29 count is 9 4.19%
    Damage value 30 count is 10 4.65%
    Damage value 31 count is 8 3.72%
    Damage value 32 count is 8 3.72%
    ---
    R33 pet auto attack damage: (up until build 473)

    Average hit damage: 11.45
    Damage value 5 count is 13 2.48%
    Damage value 6 count is 12 2.29%
    Damage value 7 count is 50 9.54%
    Damage value 8 count is 47 8.97%
    Damage value 9 count is 55 10.50%
    Damage value 10 count is 49 9.35%
    Damage value 11 count is 41 7.82%
    Damage value 12 count is 52 9.92%
    Damage value 13 count is 59 11.26%
    Damage value 14 count is 36 6.87%
    Damage value 15 count is 24 4.58%
    Damage value 16 count is 37 7.06%
    Damage value 17 count is 28 5.34%
    Damage value 18 count is 21 4.01%

    Nerf looks to be about half for pet auto attack damage, with a corresponding shift in distribution range.
    Same 5-skull zone. Same taming skill levels. Same pet (large red spider). Same targets.
     
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  5. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Looks like your pets damage is increasing, like its being trained or something
     
  6. agra

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    The damage values are showing frequency, minimum, maximum, and distribution/percentages of each damage value. This provides some statistical context.
    Pet auto attack damage was ~halved from R32 to R33. Less. :)
     
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  7. Arkah EMPstrike

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    alrighty, thanks
     
  8. Deiniak

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    does someone mantioned the super slow movement speed of pet who can't literally catch up to a mob who is walking
    so now you kite de mob because your pet can't anymore, But because your are moving your pet don't attack cause he can't follow the mob
    IMHO thats is a really bad point too

    Plz set the pet with the same speed as us
    I have to keep mob rooted for my pet to attack otherwise he's just walking behind the mob
     
  9. Aliana Berry

    Aliana Berry Avatar

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    I found out why my pet is taking so much of my focus compared to a friend the guild with the same pet. It apears the more you level combat training and summon pet, the more you need to level concentrion to be able to use your pet. So if those 2 skills are leveled up higher than your concentrion , then you will have more focus drain. But even when you do get constration around the same level as summon pet and combat training, the drian is still bad.
     
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  10. Phara

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    with 716 skill points spread over the whole taming tree, my pet is still worthless thanks to the focus drain. Do we know if someone is looking into it?
     
  11. Sixclicks

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    Focus drain needs to be high. This is because taming is suppose to be something you focus on to replace a portion of your own combat ability using a pet. If the focus drain was low, then all tamers would have an advantage over all non-tamers. It would end up making taming a requirement for everyone. Which is exactly what the devs have said they don't want to happen. Also, keep in mind that there is a skill to reduce the drain. As you progress into higher levels you'll not only have a larger focus pool, but also reduce the drain from having a tamed pet out. So the focus drain is fine right where it is.

    Taming is a late-game developing skill. It takes a lot of investment and time before becoming truly amazing. This is similar to the fire mage tree. Fire damage compared to Earth and Air kind of sucks. However, as you train the fire skills (especially the innates, %fire damage increase) it becomes significantly more powerful to the point that I could see it outpacing the Air and Earth trees by endgame skill levels. The tamed pets' damage could certainly use buffing back up to previous values though.

    Edit: Just to see a little from my perspective on this too... I've got about 560 focus. I rarely use that much in a fight unless I aggro the whole mine. So the drain, to me, doesn't seem overly significant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2016
  12. Shade Cido

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    The problem is that, yes it is a late stage skill, and so should be useful....however tamers already have to sacrifice a lot - necklace Slot, Pet Death, long summon cooldown,Rare resource needed to train, focus drain, and difficult to raise, unique skills in the taming tree meaning that apart from creature heal all the skills are of no use without a pet (what use is concentration, summoning, combat level, etc etc unless you have a pet summoned?) -with all these sacrifices that no other profession has to put up with, why should anyone bother with taming?

    I've been training taming since I've been able to mine my own silver, and have so far invested 540 skill points and apart from the skill Creature heal, all the points have no use whatsoever unless I'm using/taming a pet. For this xp investment I now have a self tamed pet that is sorta of viable (obsidian wolf, 280 Hp) however the focus drain is 265 with 370 total focus. With melee requiring a large amount of skill / focus use to do any sort of damage following the autoattack nerf, my dps actually drops when I use a tamed pet now. How is that making this a viable support skill?

    I already had some skill points invested in water, so following the nerf, I ground up the magic tree pretty quickly (especially compared to taming).

    With 180 skill points invested in the water magic tree, I have a pet that completely outclasses a tamed pet now. 234 Hp, heals player, no loss of necklace slot, 40 second summon cooldown, no pet death and only 42 focus loss. On top of that I gain some useful skills in the Water tree like Soothing rain (awesome group HOT spell) Ice arrow and Ice field (great against archers/mages) that even if I decide not to use the elemental, the xp isnt wasted.

    With an extra 80 skill points (and another very useful skill - ice shield that increase dmg Resist AND fire resist) I've now also gained the ice elemental, which has the same Hp as my obisidian wolf and can tank better, but still with only 42 focus drain. With both these elementals the DPS they put out is less than the wolf, however as I can use my own skills without running out of focus, the DPS is still a lot more than with a wolf.

    So please carry on saying taming is viable and overpowered at the moment, cause I'm sorry but I don't see it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
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  13. Sixclicks

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    At what point did I say taming is overpowered? You must be reading into something that isn't there. I actually suggested they buff the damage back to the way it was pre-taming nerf, or even possibly more if it isn't providing enough damage to make up for the loss of your own personal damage output, while keeping the health pool and focus drain the same as it is now.
     
  14. EtherBunny

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    Not really going to argue with you on this one, as I pretty much agree with you (even if I don't like some of the things). The only thing that I would look at/change would be the actual skill that drops the focus drain; Concentration. I like the fact that focus drains are up there, what I don't like are the % that the skill decreases it by. You need around 102-105 (can't remember exact, I'm at work) just to hit 25%. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that means that even if you max out at 200 with Concentration, you still won't even be at -50% Focus Drain (which at that point in the summoning/combat training would require stupid amounts of maintain focus for a pet). So, to sum it up: I think the % of Concentration need to be looked at a little more.
     
  15. agra

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    Leaving the focus drain as it is now (Cancentration was reduced to half the percentage that it was at the same skill level) will effectively eliminate the use of pets that have a level of over 30-35. Anything beyond that and the focus pool drain is so punitive, it's pointless.
    So, once again, as I've said several times now, high level tamers are punished more for using high level pets. This entire concept is the antithesis of fun and logical. Until Concentration is returned to a sane value, or the AL delta of the pet vs. the tamer is taken into consideration in the calculation, stick a fork in it, it's done.
     
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  16. Berek

    Berek Portalarian Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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  17. Birne Gilmore

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    I take you by your word! ... ;)
     
  18. agra

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  19. Birne Gilmore

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    japp, HP and Damage are quite ok now, bt the focus drain makes Pets no option for casters and a really demotivational one for other chars (read my post in the thread you suggested)
     
  20. Purefalcon

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    i still dont understand that argument beeing the excuse for "taming is too strong"
    the very same goes for every other skill tree - if one person invests in any other skill tree, they will ALWAYS have an advantage over players that dont have <insert any other skilltree>, thus making it a requirement for every other player too.
    (except that taming is incredibly hard and expensive to level compared to other trees and doesnt give you any benefit until you have it at a realy high lvl)

    may be someone could explain the difference to me, please?
     
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