Harvesting Skills Review - Thoughts of a GM Mining Machine

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Xeen Dread, Sep 21, 2016.

?

Select which, if any, harvest skills you think need adjustment.

  1. Primary Skill

    23 vote(s)
    29.1%
  2. Survey

    57 vote(s)
    72.2%
  3. Swift

    19 vote(s)
    24.1%
  4. Meticulous

    36 vote(s)
    45.6%
  5. None

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Maybe part of that low first-run result is because all of the nodes are 'spawned' and timers are not running when you start. It takes awhile to mine everything before all respawn timers are active, at which point the mine begins to speed up delivery of ore, possibly?! (Indicated by 4th trial)

    Those 30 minute blocks across the 2 hours were run consecutively for each trial, yes? (but you took a break in between and reset the mine between the no-pot trial and the pot trial)
     
  2. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    2,651
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Yes, the 2 hour block was run continuously with a break in between each trial so I could empty my inventory :)
     
  3. Deadly Habit

    Deadly Habit Avatar

    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Virtue Oasis
    One of the things I've been trying to calculate is what sort of formula is used to determine the rates when you're using multiple buffs due to etched/artisan/prosperity tools & obsidian potions with gathering on top of your base skill level, speed, and meticulous.

    Unfortunately don't have a fresh account to start with and compare/contrast, but some info I can share thus far with mining at least is:

    Base Mining gains .35% per level
    Speed gains .2% per level

    Will add more when I crunch some more numbers and pump some more xp into Meticulous (even though at 93 right now with a prosperity pickaxe and obsidian potion bonus it seems to be way less frequent than it should be to further level).
     
  4. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Results of 30 minute runs in spectral mines after a pre-clear (excluded random combat from trials). Fairly consistent results. Have to wait until tomorrow after work to do the +10% metic pot trials for comparison of xp, total ore, and rare ore rates. These runs were all done in the same play session and instance, but I did take a break here and there between segments (doesn't seem to have mattered at all).

    This information is mostly useless without the other half of the trial :p

    Code:
    30 Minute Mining Trial "Zero Metic" Skills (locked) 89 Mining, 101 swift, 40 survey, 0 metic + Swift Pot (40%) and carry pot (50%)
    XpStart        XpStop        XpGain    Nodes    OreStart           OreStop           OreGain     Ore/Node    GraniteTotal
    29867          82867         53000     106      0                  106i 43n 47tu      196        1.849        212    -212
    82867         140367         57500     115      106i 43n 47tu      220i 89n 106tu     219        1.904        440    -228
    140367        195867         55500     111      220i 89n 106tu     331i 133n 145tu    194        1.748        662    -222
    195867        250367         54500     109      331i 133n 145tu    440i 169n 185tu    185        1.697        880    -218
    
    30 Minute Mining Trial "10% Metic" Skills (locked) 89 Mining, 101 swift, 40 survey, 0 metic + Metic Pot (10%) Swift Pot (40%) and carry pot (50%)
    XpStart        XpStop        XpGain    Nodes    OreStart    OreStop        OreGain        Ore/Node    GraniteTotal
    Average Rates (zero metic):
    110250 xp/hr
    220 nodes/hr
    1.7995 ores/node (appx. 80% chance to pick up one rare ore per node)
    220 iron ore/hr
    84.5 nickel/hr
    92.5 tungsten/hr
    397 total ore/hr
    440 granite/hr
    20730 gold/hr value

    All ore valued at 50g each
    Granite at 2g each if hauled, but was actually discarded after each segment
    Iron ore value based on lower end of fluctuating player market
    Other material values are fixed vendor prices and may fetch a slightly higher price if sold on player market
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  5. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    At 38 voters, only half think meticulous needs to change. The vast majority along with development think survey needs work. Some want change to the primary harvest skill and swiftness. Not one person thinks all the skills are fine 'as is'.

    The simple breakdown, if you aren't reading the whole thread so far:

    Primary harvest skill has extremely low benefit relative to xp invested in terms of increased success rate. Can harvest tier 5 node at 90% rate with lvl ~60 or 94% rate at GM for 1M more xp invested. No skill level/proficiency requirements to mine anything in the game thus far. How and if this skill affects crit harvest rates is unknown.

    Survey is worthless for most harvests, especially once you learn where to look for all the nodes. Mostly useful for foraging, entirely useless for skinning and forestry, marginally helpful (initially) for mining.

    Swift gathering seems to give linear benefits for an exponentially increasing xp requirement and operating quite like one would expect.

    Meticulous collection results in reduced rare ore/material harvest per hour and xp per hour, but may be doing its job if and when ore/harvesting nodes are in short supply by yielding increased basic materials per node.


    Again, will try to get to the second half of the Spectral Mines study with 10% MC pot tonight.

    For SnG's I'll also do a run on my character with 30% Metic under the same conditions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  6. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    As long as we don't end up with skills that are as useless as UO's "Spirit Speak", I think we'll be ok...
    [​IMG]
    More knowledge of any skill should improve all skills under them in some way or another... o_O
    ~Time Lord~;)
     
  7. jaciss

    jaciss Avatar

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    ~/
    Thank you, Xeen, for your data and insight.

    I imagine there will be, but as you say, the base gathering skill is fairly pointless to level to GM right now. Different types of spawns with varying difficulties would seem to be both the plan and the fix for this one in all cases. Hopefully regionally located to encourage local "feel", economies, trade, and travel. I also agree that the survey skill is currently fairly pointless - you can find most of the nodes pretty easily without it and once you've run an area a few times you've memorized most of the locations. Most people run the same areas repeatedly, thus finding and memorizing even the harder-to-find nodes after a bit of time. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't put any points into survey other than foraging until I'd gotten the other desirable skills to a high level.

    I think the difficulty is that beginning players have no idea what they're looking for so the nodes have to be somewhat obvious. Survey could stay much the same and still be useful for release if new higher level nodes were introduced or existing nodes modified so some were almost impossible to see without the skill. You'd still memorize them over time, but with a slow addition of new materials and areas to the game there would be always be a reason to have the skill.

    Yes and yes. My thoughts, as well. If a character has GM survey it would stand to reason that they could "see" more resource nodes than a character with no experience in that. I was actually expecting this when I started playing - that new nodes or nodes of different types would appear as I gained in the survey skill. Not that you were saying this, but I think that increasing the amount of resources harvested per node should be restricted to meticulous collection, and rare drops tied into the base gathering skill (with a corresponding percent chance upon each meticulous collection) to give the base skill value beyond just the failure rate and make each skill more useful. With the addition of a small bit of XP per meticulous collection and harder-to-see nodes this would make each skill valuable independent of the others.

    Field dressing is definitely an issue - invisible critters certainly won't work. I don't think a bonus to drops and rare drops (better "seeing" the suet, thrombus, etc) is the answer - again, that should be tied into the base skill to give it some value. Perhaps a tracking/treasure map system, but that'd be a fair bit of work to implement.

    Agreed - whatever the numbers, you should be getting some XP from meticulous collection. I think there should be a small chance of getting the rare drops, as well. Thank you for posting your data so neatly!
     
    moko, lollie and Time Lord like this.
  8. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Jaciss, cool write up.

    I do like the idea of survey revealing nodes that are otherwise undetectable as well. That is an interesting way of putting things/morphing ideas.

    I still want a way for people to be able to not only work together harvesting, but also benefit from working together (if possible, seems like mining is the only harvest that stands to take advantage of something like that).


    I've been running the second trial with my gf's character metic potted at 10% now and even my own character with GM all skills + all buffs (but no valid comparison to be made against itself unbuffed, still looks like a slight drop in xp relative to the other character, but not all skills are the same). Getting some interesting results that support my claims. The tolerance is so close though with randomality and only a 10% MC rate. Even still, plain to see that there is a slight drop in xp/hour and a drop in rare ores/hour, especially with respect to the basic ore collected, but regardless of it too. I have one more 30-minute segment of the trial to run. I have a couple of issues with the trials though, one being that they were run on 2 different nights and thus 2 different instances (we know that instances and times can have some odd results with spawn rates/densities of available ore, but my detailed breakdown of harvest helps to shed some light anyway) AND I seemed to be critting like crazy on both accounts tonight, which would lessen the apparent xp reduction as a result of having increased MC and spending more time on a single node for the one-off 500 xp.

    Need a way to track total crits as well as MC multiples that doesn't involve me counting them all out :p but it looks like that's my only option. Would have been REALLY useful to have that data on both sets.

    Scoffer!! *Tag*
     
    moko and Time Lord like this.
  9. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Code:
    Amare Dread
    30 Minute Mining Trial "Zero Metic" Skills (locked) 89 Mining, 101 swift, 40 survey, 0 metic + Swift Pot (40%) and carry pot (50%)
    XpStart       XpStop       XpGain    Nodes    OreStart         OreStop        OreGain    Ore/Node   GraniteTotal
    29867          82867        53000     106     0                106i 43n 47tu    196      1.849        212    -212
    82867         140367        57500     115     106i 43n 47tu    220i 89n 106tu   219      1.904        440    -228 o/w
    140367        195867        55500     111     220i 89n 106tu   331i 133n 145tu  194      1.748        662    -222 o/w
    195867        250367        54500     109     331i 133n 145tu  440i 169n 185tu  185      1.697        880    -218 o/w
    
    *Unusually 'crity' today, need way to check crit% for better analysis, crit possibly linked to metic and meant to compensate for added harvest time?*
    
    Amare Dread
    30 Minute Mining Trial "10% Metic" Skills (locked) 89 Mining, 101 swift, 40 survey, 0 metic + Metic Pot (10%) Swift Pot (40%) and carry pot (50%)
    XpStart       XpStop        XpGain   Nodes   OreStart         OreStop          OreGain     Ore/Node    GraniteTotal
    258367        312367        54000    108     0                128i 47n 45tu     220        2.037        216    Keep 200
    312367        365867        53500    107     128i 47n 45tu    244i 81n 89tu     194        1.813        430    -230 o/w
    365867        420367        54500    109     244i 81n 89tu    364i 117n 129tu   196        1.798        658    -218 o/w
    420367        474867        54500    109     364i 117n 129tu  482i 154n 173tu   199        1.826        876    keep 218
    
    Xeen Dread
    30 Minute Mining Trial "30% Metic" Skills (locked) 100 Mining, 100 swift, 100 survey, 100 metic + Metic Pot (10%) Swift Pot (40%) and carry pot (50%)
    XpStart       XpStop        XpGain   Nodes  OreStart         OreStop         OreGain     Ore/Node    GraniteTotal
    519224        572724        53500    107    0                151i 52n 36tu    239        2.234        214    Keep
    572724        624224        51500    103    151i 52ni 36tu   296i 87n 77tu    221        2.146        420    All
    624224        677224        53000    106    296i 87n 77tu    439i 123n 133tu  235        2.217        632    Cuz
    677224        728224        51000    102    439i 123n 133tu  595i 161n 183tu  244        2.392        836    Swoll
    
    The numbers tell many things. There are some wonderful trends here to be spotted.

    I'll leave it to you guys to draw some conclusions :)

    Average Rates (zero metic):
    110250 xp/hr
    220 nodes/hr
    1.7995 ores/node (appx. 80% chance to pick up one rare ore per node)
    220 iron ore/hr
    84.5 nickel/hr
    92.5 tungsten/hr
    397 total ore/hr
    440 granite/hr
    20730 gold/hr value

    Average Rates (10% metic):
    108250 xp/hr
    216.5 nodes/hr
    1.869 ores/node (appx. % chance to pick up one rare ore per node)
    241 iron ore/hr
    77 nickel/hr
    86.5 tungsten/hr
    404.5 total ore/hr
    438 granite/hr
    21101 gold/hr value

    Average Rates (30% metic): **Caustion, no baseline of comparison to same character with less or no buffs**
    104500 xp/hr
    209 nodes/hr
    2.247 ores/node (appx. % chance to pick up one rare ore per node)
    297.5 iron ore/hr
    80.5 nickel/hr
    91.5 tungsten/hr
    469.5 total ore/hr
    836 granite/hr
    25147 gold/hr value



    All ore valued at 50g each
    Granite at 2g each if hauled, but was actually discarded after some segments on the weaker miner
    Iron ore value based on lower end of fluctuating player market, but may price even lower if prices continue to drop
    Other material values are fixed vendor prices and may fetch a slightly higher price if sold on player market
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
    Winter Dragon, Bom and Time Lord like this.
  10. Laurana

    Laurana Avatar

    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    18
    My thoughts on each skill and how it can be improved.

    Base skill
    What I would really like to see is difficulty levels for the different nodes. I can't remember which release I played last that had them but it gave a reason to raise base proficiency levels. In addition I'd like to see a failure on collection return scraps and destroy the node, again to give relevance to raising skill levels while still rewarding effort slightly.

    Meticulous
    It's been said already but giving reduced xp and a chance for more rare mats would go a long way to making this skill better.

    Survey
    I'd like to see this improved with something. Right now I'm thinking a slight increase in your chance of getting rare mats from harvest or a slight increase in critical harvest chance. The only skill it's really useful for is foraging regs at the moment.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  11. jaciss

    jaciss Avatar

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    ~/
    Thank you, and that was my thought as well. A GM survey character could point out a node that a base skill GM character could not see, but the base skill GM character would be able to harvest it where the survey character could not - or simply get more rare drops from it. If each skill is useful independent of the others you create a richer environment to play in. More play, less grind. I kind of like the way the game is set up right now with low level characters being able to do many things higher level characters can, just not as well or as quickly. It's likely to be much less intimidating to new players, and gives people more reason to team up and put down roots.

    ...or reason to level your GF's character for her, lucky chica.

    Thanks again for sharing and the time you put into gathering this data. It's very interesting - I'll have to get back to you with some tidbits of my own when I have time to put them together.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  12. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    [​IMG]
    ~Time Lord~:D
     
    Tibs likes this.
  13. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    C'mon, back to the numbers!

    No one else pointed it out yet and I can't wait, so..

    As Meticulous Collection rates increase, there are trends (some even visible across characters that have superior mining skills like in the last data set).
    decreasing nodes per hour (and resulting xp per hour, BAD!!) from time spent MC'ing
    increasing ores/node (as it should be)
    increasing basic ore/hr (also expected)
    reduced rare ore/hr (ALSO BAD!!)

    Here's the biggy (Das Conclusion):

    MC COLLECTION RATE IS NOT A BENEFIT TO YOUR CHARACTER.

    As a result of increasing the Meticulous Collection rate (Excluding the third data set because it was done on a different character) TOTAL ORE PER HOUR REMAINS MOSTLY UNCHANGED.

    We are simply swapping out rare ores for more basic ores AND getting less xp in the process. Compare individual breakdown of ores harvested between trial 1 and trial 2 for Amare Dread (0 vs 10% MC rate). Subsequently, if the market value of that base ore is lower than rare ores, you are reducing gold income per hour for having the skill/pot buff! (Hell, I've seen iron ore for sale at 25-35 gold each now, forget 50)

    As previously stated, I had suspected that MC was at best causing a break-even scenario or possibly even being a DETRIMENT to our productivity for having spent time, xp, and effort to acquire a skill. Not only should it NOT be a drawback to have a seemingly excellent skill (which it currently is not), but it should be a boon on all facets including basic and rare ore per hour increase and at the very least, maintaining xp/hour or even increasing xp/hour. Granted this data is limited and possibly flawed (unknown crit rates between sessions, 2 different nights/instances of Spectral Mines, not a whole lot of difference between the data sets on some aspects, but even that indicates MC isn't worth having), but it does support my claim.

    I challenge any reader, under the same testing conditions, to prove otherwise. If it can't be done, I challenge the development to provide whatever suitable changes they deem necessary (good suggestions in thread), and I'll be back at it testing 'harvest skills 2.0'

    (4) 30-minute uninterrupted mining sessions at a location (Etceter or Spectral) that allows for combat-free mining and does yield a mix of basic and rare ores (copper/iron nodes, not gold/silver, Spectral Mines is the best imo), running the same route (no changing pathing, using movement speed modifiers, or any other dynamic variables across trials or segments) with the only change to your character's stats being Meticulous Collection rate from one 2-hour trial to the other. If possible, accuracy is extremely important, please collect data on number of node attempts, number of fails (these first two go together with xp-determined nodes harvested), number of crits (during MC multiples and 'first harvest', even better if you can differentiate the two in the data), and number of MC multiples.



    @Berek
    @Atos (why don't you come visit me in the mines anymore Atos! You gave me part of this idea below) [Edit: apparently not his forum name?!]

    Setting up a much more controlled study would be possible with the help of GM's. All it would take is to set a mine, even a single ore vein, in front of a character to 'overdrive, captain-insano' spawn rate and have a character sit right in front of it mining it for 30 minutes at maximum capacity, reset timer and alter MC rate, then repeat while gathering data on both trials. This would make testing MUCH more easy and eliminate pathing and the randomality of spawn locations and rates from the equation. Granted, collection rates would be up across the board, but we would be interested in how one super-spawn mining session at one MC rate compares to another super-spawn session with zero or a changed MC rate. If possible, compare a character with 0% MC and then after setting skill to 200 + an obsidian pot for a total MC rate of 50%, compare to the maximum MC rate for best data contrast. All other skills/variables held constant.

    Edit: After the accelerated trial, (if done by me), I could simply discard all materials collected down to an amount equal to what I have already demonstrated I can collect in a given amount of time... or all of them if necessary.
     
    Spoon, Bom and Time Lord like this.
  14. Gravidy

    Gravidy Avatar

    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    613
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Yes and yes and yes :)! Especially making each skill provide one-and-only-one benefit.

    Field dressing survey could open up "new" nodes ... i.e., maybe corpses of past dead creatures. Although, you really wouldn't want to pull food sources off of old carcasses. It's an idea, but to be honest, not one that I really like /shrugs.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  15. LiquidSky

    LiquidSky Avatar

    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    509
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I suspect that when all skills reach 200 ...Mining/Swift/Meticulous...

    ...that this will no longer hold true. What will happen is you will get a lot of instant mining from criticals. Including instant (Multiple) Meticulous (Meticuli?)

    Between that (and the 200 swift) you will probably clear out all the nodes and have to sit around and wait....meaning the slow single node miner will get a lot less stuff...since both of you will get the same number of nodes.

    Which suggests to me that there will be an intersecting curve between the two methods..with the Meticulous route overcoming the non-met method.


    EDIT: You can edit your OFFLINE mode game if you are really curious about testing without having to involve devs
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  16. Tibs

    Tibs Avatar

    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    335
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Harvesting and crafting activity should also feed into passive adventure skills like strength, dexterity, and health. These xp sinks seem bottomless.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  17. Laurana

    Laurana Avatar

    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The problem is that you shouldn't have to sink that much into a skill for it to become something useful.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  18. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

    Messages:
    1,497
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Does the base proficiency skill continue to increase your chance for criticals even after success rates are capped?
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  19. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Avatar

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I don't know if base prof increases critical at all. I don't have that information so easily accessible to check. I also don't know if there is a cap (aside from true 100% like on lesser nodes) for the same reasons + how numbers that you get in your UI panels are all typically rounded (or perhaps truncated?, but I think rounded normally) to nearest whole integers (sometimes tenths).

    There's one hell of a reason to not let players have access to their detailed stats/information... so we can't see that things aren't working right.... nice way to cover up. We should be able to see them during alpha/testing, and then once everything is gravy, sure go hide them for 'immersion' or whatever. Just like how we have 3rd party trade chats and forums and websites to do everything that can't be done in game for other reasons.. and the raffle that's supposed to prevent single players or groups from hoarding bulks of deeds and running the market... Ain't workin'
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  20. Candor Atlantica

    Candor Atlantica Avatar

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    I thought it was bad timing with a new release and some nerfing going on, but thanks to all of you, you have come to the same conclusion as I. I have GM X 4, and I have noticed my spawn rate for Tungsten and Nickel have gone down considerably and Meticulous seems to be the culprit. My son's account, which is not GM Meticulous pulls in more Tungsten and Nickel. I've tested this out over several hours. Last night after 2 separate 1 hour stints in Spectral Mine, I noticed my account mined a distinct amount of Nickel versus Tungsten, which normally had always been about even. So I wonder if there is an issue with Tungsten and Meticulous?
     
    Time Lord likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.