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Game imbalance is not incentive

Discussion in 'Release 36 Dev+ Feedback Forum' started by Umuri, Nov 8, 2016.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    This is my argument for having 1v1, 2v2, areas, etc...

    A fair fight is a fair fight. I have no problem going into a scene to PVP where I have a zero risk of being ganked by a group. There's a reason that FPS games don't have 1 v 8 mode. :)

    I really hope there's some intention from the devs to provide a fair fight for those that want it. I'd love to have an area where I can level that I know is only capable of having one other person showing up. I'll fight that fight all day. But right now going into an area where you could be out numbered by a large margin is not something I'd actively seek out. (unless it's my POT where people have ways to escape)
     
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  2. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Avatar

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    I don't do much pvp. I do agree that the penalties involved in pvp encourage players not to pvp. I would like to play in pvp and incentives might make it more likely.

    Other possible incentives in conjunction, or instead of, experience gain could be:

    - lower durability loss on equipment
    - more health and/or focus regen
    - bonus to health pool
    - bonus to crit chance
    - bonus to adventurer levels in comparison to monster levels
    - 10% bonus to damage/defense


    You can enhance a pvp player without strictly giving a flat bonus to xp. (This may be better received than the xp bonus, but I'm not against any type of experimentation here, experimentation is good - though it can be harder when we are always in a persistent state).

    If you are going to encourage players to be in pvp, it may be nice to also give players in pvp mode the option to hide their whereabouts from their friendslist.

    It is important to also note that being in multi-player already reduces your xp gain in many instances. The argument that a group of 10 people faces no risk and gets this xp bonus reward seems a fallacy because experience does not scale well above 2 players to my knowledge - and crafting/pve suffers as well. I would like to see a multi-player mode xp bonus frankly.

    Edit - Roycestein makes this point below as well. Competition is harsher than the bonuses in many cases.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
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  3. Roycestein Kaelstrom

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    It seems people are upset now because they are "forced" to be in PVP flag because this 25% bonus is the ultimate salvation that everyone must have it.

    The way it currently is right now, wouldn't being in FOO and SPO considered to give you 100%-400% boost in XP and resources because you wouldn't have to compete with 3-4 (if there are 5 or more, probably better just go elsewhere anyway) on the same zone given the same amount of time spent in game with MO?
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    No apology needed since you didn't. Please keep this civil. I know you're passionate but keep this constructive.

    Yes, 25% more experience means you can get an extra skill to 100 for every skill you 4 skills you get to 100. You know how else you can get an extra skill to a high level, only leveling them to 98 instead of 100. You can try and make it as negative as you want but it isn't going to change that there is more risk in PVP and there should be more reward. It is not it's own reward any more than PVE is it's own reward.

    We do need to fix performance and improvements for multiplayer play will go in for this release for connections.

    If people want to suggest alternative ways to reward PVP that does not involve inventing an entire new game and is not super exploitable, then please share your ideas and we'll gladly consider them for future releases. Saying, PVP is it's own reward is not true. UO rewarded you, WoW rewarded you, every game rewarded you just in different ways.
     
  5. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Avatar

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    I had a few suggestions above. I played a mud where "deadly" players (aka pvp players) hit harder/defended harder against monsters. Nobody ever said it was unfair, but I think that was back in the days when "fair" wasn't a big part of the vocabulary. Granted in the muds I played you capped out at a certain level. Part of the issue here is that levels and skill gains feel endless and the perception (perhaps the correct one) is that some players are getting xp 10-20x faster than the average dedicated player.

    I personally would make an xp bonus applicable to multi-player mode, and the above list applicable to pvp mode in addition to the multi-player bonus. You'll still be told that you're forcing people to play their mmo with other people of course ;)

    (Yes, I like choices - but playing multi-player does not mean you are forced to play with other people, you can go to scenes without other players, and if those other people that are in your scenes are interfering with killing monsters/resources etc. then the xp bonus isn't worth it, it just attempts to mitigate the damage one takes to their leveling speed when in SP mode.)

    Maybe no bonus applied in control points is an answer here too.
     
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  6. Selene

    Selene Avatar

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    If I am out grinding just for experience (don't care about loot) and wear non-lootable gear, I am not seeing a risk to being flagged for pvp when multiplayer zones are almost always so empty. I think this experience bonus only makes sense if there is decay from death by pvp. Otherwise there is no "risk" in dying.
     
  7. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Avatar

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    A lot of the "risk" in multi-player mode is that other people are taking your kills and resources. PvP mode just means they can kill you too :)
     
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  8. Brass Knuckles

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    Just reading up on this, nice not enough but a good first step.
     
  9. Drocis the Devious

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    The non-lootable gear is an issue. But so is the way the ransom system is currently working.

    Body parts should always be lootable. Always.
    I'm still in favor of pledge and add-on store items not being lootable, but I really hope we can get some type of 'skin' system into the game so the gear never really gets looted, just the skin. I know this is a "new system" but can't see a way around this to balance risk vs. reward.
     
  10. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    All good ideas but I think that players who are angry about XP bonuses would also be angry about this stuff. The XP bonus felt fair and was low hanging fruit. We're listing it as a "Trial" feature right now to see if we actually get more PVP going on. If the result is just that some people get more PVE experience and no more PVPing actually occurs then we'll trash it. Also, I agree with @Umuri that if we want people to be more social and PVP then fix the performance BUT I think that is only one part of the puzzle.
     
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  11. Aurelius Silverson

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    Learning from the experience of those games is sensible and valid - but simply repeating the ways they did things isn't. The point I try to make is that different things make PvP appealing to different people- the competition, skill involved, teams formed, adrenalin rush, need to be constantly alert, or a bunch of other things (for me the only PvP that got me involved was in DAOC, where it was teamwork for the benefit of your 'realm', which I really enjoyed), but what gets and keeps people in the PvP scene is them enjoying it.

    Since you cite UO, my experience of that game was over 16 years was that PvP and the PvP community degenerated to a shadow of what it was in the original releases of the game because it was not enjoyable enough to attract and keep a big enough proportion of the playerbase, some folks still keep it alive but even they usually admit the numbers are not there - despite adding valuable items just available the PvP facets, boosting skill gains, bringing in all sorts of 'bribes' - the failure is at heart because it was not enjoyable enough to keep big numbers of the people doing it.

    The flip side of developing 'incentives' for the PvP game is that it implies that the PvE crowd are just the 'bog standard audience' who will be happy with the stuff we create (and so far I find the PvE element of SotA is rewarding enough to keep playing) but the more you make some things 'features' for one part of the playerbase, the more you foster the divide in the playerbase. Effectively you make PvP 'PVE plus benefits' - which is guaranteed to wear on the nerves and patience of those who end up getting the feeling of being a 'lesser class' of players. The only common currency for all the players is that what they do is enough fun to keep them wanting to do it - what is being done here, and in UO, and pretty much every other mmo I've seen, is papering over the core issue, and it never, ever maintains the numbers involved over in the long term.

    Since I hope SotA is good for many, many years then I am VERY concerned we are following a route that has never worked in the past, rather than finding new and better ways to do this.
     
  12. Selene

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    I'm sorry but I've spent the last 3 days in a shardfall which is already pvp and multiplayer and I haven't seen another soul. Still not seeing the risk. This might be true in 1 or 2 of the "best" tier 5 zones, but otherwise.. meh.
     
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  13. NRaas

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    Well, considering I play with the PvP flag permanently enabled, and have only been attacked twice since persistence (I play the sheep and don't actively search out conflict), this change could potentially make things far more interesting...

    I'll be watching this next release carefully. :)
     
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  14. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I only play in Friends Online, so this change will not affect me. I don't feel that the bonus is terrible or anything, tho I'd rather see it added to the grouping bonus rather than just existing for being in Open Multiplayer. I do think a bonus to being flagged for PVP should require changes tho: Flagging should prevent you from leaving Open Multiplayer, and PVP death should cause decay.

    Note that I also feel that PVP should have more plusses. The current cost to recover looted items is too low, and there are not enough bonuses that merit using your best gear in PVP, so everyone seems to be in unlootable gear for the most part. Gaining some amount of experience for PVP makes sense, but it needs to be unexploitable (don't get xp for players well under your level, and only get xp when the opponent has a chance to win, e.g. fighting back and causes at least 50% of your hp in damage). Doing something with PVP trophies would be nice as well; Outlander Blood to turn into Blood Iron (another metal to use in recipes), and the Outlander Bones can be turned into Bonesteel (carpentry material, like Bone Armor), in addition to being used as decorations of course. I'd give them the same bonuses as White Iron, but with a unique appearance. Other rewards for PVP might be titles, emotes, and the like; rewards should be visual, not power.
     
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  15. Drocis the Devious

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    Also, I think moving from a PVP scene should retain the PVP flag for a period of time so people can't jump out of the scene to immediate safety. I hope that's a change coming up soon too.
     
  16. Lord Andernut

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    I am talking about zones like the hidden vale (or control-points?) which are over-farmed but people play in single-player mode to do so. There is no reason to expand to other areas of the map like shardfalls because there is no competition.
     
  17. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    @Aurelius Silverson and others who suggest more compelling PVP experiences, we are working on those as well. This isn't instead of having interesting and rewarding PVP, it is in addition to it. This is just coming on first because it is hours of work vs months of work.
     
  18. Brass Knuckles

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    I like it, risk vrs reward is the stuff that put uo on the map pvp wise.

    Also id like to see if u craft in the new pvp town, it unlocks pvp specific rng items.
     
  19. Weins201

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    You are not going to see in increase in PvP you ARE going to see in increase in Player Flagged PvP and playing in Multiplayer but that is about it they are going to avoid actuall PvP like the plague since the PvP player who act like ass hats is the reason players do not want to PvP.

    Cheaters.

    Scammers.

    exploiters.

    "tea baggers" and the like

    and so on are the reason player do not want to deal with PvP not the system . . .
     
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  20. Umuri

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    I intend to, the apology was more for bullet-pointing, since i know those get tedious to respond to, as exampled by that you glossed over a few points. :/

    Yes, and? The existence of one way of spending it does not change the existence of the other. Just because there are options on how to spend it does not change that the amount is material.

    We're not disagreeing that pvp should have a reward.
    I feel you've purposefully ignored my previous point on this regard.


    PVP has a reward, it's called looting.
    If pvp's reward is not sufficient enough, increase it.

    PVE also has its own reward, it's called looting.
    See the similarity?


    We do need to fix performance and improvements for multiplayer play will go in for this release for connections.

    If people want to suggest alternative ways to reward PVP that does not involve inventing an entire new game and is not super exploitable, then please share your ideas and we'll gladly consider them for future releases.

    No, it's not. However that's not an innate truth of pvp. It's only true because -this- pvp system has been -designed- that way.
    It's not our fault you've chosen to not reward your pvpers enough through the existing system.
    PVP -should- be its own reward, and it's not currently, because the pvp reward system is not appropriate.

    You are attempting to fix a broken system by forcing people to play it through external bonuses.
    That is proof positive your system is broke and needs fixing.
    You don't balance crafting risk with adventurer skills.
    You don't balance adventuring deaths with gathering experience.


    with loot, similar to SOTA, which therefore made PVP its own reward.
    Which were tied to PVP, and were something people chose to do because they enjoyed it, not because they were forced into being cannon fodder for the 1%.
    Wow provided somewhat equal fights that were fun for all involved. PVP gave its own rewards.


    If you want pvp, make it fun, make it worthwhile, make it interesting, and make it actually fair that people want to do it.
    Don't slap on punishments for those who don't or -can't- do it until they are forced to.
    You already did that with the party system, and it sets an ugly precedent.

    Right now, I can't group over half the time i'm on, due to the hours i keep and no one being around. that's -20% experience. And yes, it is a flat -20% experience, because when i group we still pull the same base rate since we kill roughly twice as fast(certain zone setups allow two players to farm efficiently, but these are the minority).
    Now, I can't pvp because certain performance issues completely prevent me from doing so fairly, and that's another -25% experience.

    Your "solutions" means that you are forcing me to pick between advancing at 2/3rds the rate of other players, or only play during certain hours of the day when i can find players on who match my play rate, in a very specific fashion that i do not find fun due to the fact that i am unable to effectively play due to framerate penalties that have been in for more than a halfdozen releases and have been well documented.


    Please stop ignoring the flaws in existing systems.
    Fix the systems and people will use them. Most people don't avoid multiplayer because they're antisocial, they avoid it because it can't handle a decent population, either in resources, or in performance.
     
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