The Oracle Paradox

Do you happen to remember the episode where there is some kind of anomaly the enterprise investigates and then after the comercial break the everything changes and the federation has been waging a war and Guinean has a strange feeling that something isn't right. also Tasha didn't die in this alternate timeline and Guinean for some reason was aware of their appropriate timeline that the show took place. I wonder when time/history is altered isn't it convinient to have a trusted and stable confidant that is aware of physical universal changes that the human mind is unable to perceive the change. i liked that episode because Picard trusted his friend and confidant even when nothing in reality indicated that she was correct.

that same loyalty was shown in the final episode when the crew even risked their careers because of their respect and friendship with Picard even though he seemed crazy.

Perhaps the oracle might have some characteristic that some might be drawn too as a form of loyalty and trust perhaps stemming from compassion for the oracle even if it comes to a place where others might give up on the oracle or even be tempted to destroy it, but an avatar might rather risk all people for the one... sometimes the need for the one outweighs the needs of the many.

 

Remember it well. This is where time is altered when the Enterprise C enters a time rift.

Season 3 Ep 15 =======> Make it so number 1

 

Not sure if I want to speculate too much on the Oracles intents at the moment. But I do agree with your point about having a trusted and stable confidant, and this is what helped Picard make a decision that he probably wouldn't have made otherwise.

 

*shutters* I can't say I've ever been a fan of tarot cards at all, but I do think our Oracle is building up a sort of 6 sided dice of her own "I Ching", as our Lum has most likely been a D&D follower in his past.

Reminds me of a Tony Robins trust seminar where the one thing which was reinforced was to have your checkbook ready for the addition of more zeros.

Being such a central character (entertainer) within our game, I do hope she finds her way to becoming a more entertaining personality. The one thing I'd say she has within personality at this stage of her development is that she "feels" or attempts to know the emotion of love. Love isn't exactly a solid virtue to count on because to love one thing is to hold others as not so loved. I've always found that by replacing the word "Love" with "Favored" tends to change context yet shares a meaning between them as if a truth serum of what type of love something is or is not, "Wanted" is another replacement word and so on down a list of 1000 other words.

Yourself being learned within occultist things @Jaanelle DeJure , I'm always reminded that Venus may be the called the planet of love, but it is also referred to as Lucifer or Satan depending on it's astral positioning. Love in this way is always the enticer, seductress and muse which leads to pain as well as relief and temptations. It's been the most used (so called virtue) within all of Lord British's works to operate as the one thing that draws us to those assumptions which he then turns to reveal that our preconception of what was our Love before was false or had the other side which before was ignored. Love is the evils of beauty in that way, where to call something beautiful is also to have called something else ugly because they both are comparative describers. It was a garden of Eden until a subject material was introduced between for them both to consider. If it were not for the material (apple), the 2 that became one which was the triad (man, woman, union) within the relationship would have been content. If looked at within the Gnostic way, one can see the geometry which formed man's first science of geometric shapes having differing meanings which then transferred to emotional connective contention, where only Plato's heaven had the right combination within it's structure. When a Gnostic eye meets the same Bible as we use today, it still sees nothing more than a geometry of mathematics where conclusions of philosophy and predictions are as easy as the old axiom "point, line, plane, solid"; A point being made leads to the predicted line, the line leads the way to the predictable plane and the final solid being the seed of all matter that comes thereafter. When we look at Lord British's ways of using the virtues, this is where seeing them as a map becomes the divining rod which points to where the pathway will lead to it's conclusion in the quest or game.

If anyone here has never placed the Ultima virtues onto a sheet of paper and connected the dots between them, "I do encourage everyone to have done this at least once within their lifetime".

----------------------------------------------- Honor -----------------------------------------------

Honesty ------------------------------ Compassion --------------------------------- Valor

-------------------- Justice --------------------------------------- Sacrifice ------------------

Truth --------------------------------------- Love ------------------------------------ Courage

------------------------------------------- Spirituality --------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------- Humility ---------------------------------------------

<-------------------------------------------- Infinity ---------------------------------------------> (the lost connecting virtue "infinity", with the human virtues listed on top and the gargoyle virtues on the bottom. Connect the dots as prescribed by Ultima).

---------------------------------------------- Order ------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------- Singularity --------------------------------------------

Control ------------------------------- Passion --------------------------------- Diligence

------------------- Balance ------------------------------------ Achievement -----------------

Direction ------------------------------- Feeling ----------------------------- Persistence

------------------------------------------- Precision ------------------------------------------------

http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Gargish_Virtues
Direction= Control
Feeling= Passion
Persistence= Diligence
Balance= Control+ Passion
Achievement= Passion+ Diligence
Precision= Control+ Diligence
Order= Absence of; Control+ Passion+ Diligence
Singularity= Control+ Passion+ Diligence



Some of Ultima's descriptions of the virtues have slightly changed through the years through refinements of intent made after the original virtues were first produced, they continued to be more described...


There's no right way to follow the virtues, yet if they are seen as a geometric form (one way or the other, or another), then we must assume that geometry has something to do with virtues because that was what Lord British (Ultima) strived for. To strive for something has meaning within it's concept, what meaning that is may not even be known to the producers and even dismissed by them as being only an elegant display of them. Yet when things are depicted as a solid or 2 dimensional geo-form, this is the subconscious at work even when denied it's relevance. If we see the virtues as a 8 sided D&D Dice, then we could see where AI within the Oracle could show more humanistic qualities, not only just in relationship to the virtues, "but if moods or feelings are placed on a similar Dice, we can then see where a random (if not a wave in time function) could be applied to help bring our Oracle more close to a set of life like response, rather then a constant answer in sameness".

"In one position within the sky, the planet Venus is the herald of the coming of the Sun (Lucifer). Yet, while in it's other position, it defies the Sun and continues to shine through the night sky (Satan). One is the promise of what is to come, or promised, while the other is the temptation which encouraged historical travelers that night time travel was more safe than it may seem to reach a desired destination, and therefore a temptation to proceed through the night. With such timers (not necessarily in the sky), a more life like changing response could be had, where the Oracle could choose to encourage a safer path at one time, while encouraging a more direct or aggressive path in a separate response depending on what time one asks it the question.

Whether by changing positions of our planets, a hidden timer or by random dice throw, our Oracle could benefit through differing responses which then could cause the seeker to consider all angles and thus not just follow the Oracle on a seemingly set path with only single ways to accomplish things. "Wonder" is the desired quality here, because it's the only reason other than gold right now. Relationships of Love, Courage or Truth are all something that can lead a way to "enjoined feelings" between the Oracle and the Seeker. Quest trees with branches are 2 dimensional, yet with such subtle changes within responses brings a more 3 dimensional aspect to the relationship, rather than the dictator styled content she currently uses.

Our Oracle is "the" central character which is the commune point between player and the game. Thus, our game seeming more alive would be a far better "interactive" if responses are not held to being so dictated or numb within their feeling when received. Sure, a bit of this could be done with a same response using flowered language, yet when that response is the same each time, the flowers are then only seen as stagnate without life. Life is needed with also levity because "the one who buys the game is more important to entertain than the accompanying book or historical set in stone." This means that if the Oracle is kept mechanical within it's responses, it may be more accurate to hinting of the storyline, yet the storyline would not suffer if she were more entertaining... "entertaining enough so we (or more players) wish to see her without her payments to us".

The importance of "levity" cannot be disregarded at all costs, because if something is heavy always, then we naturally don't want to hang around such a person who is always so serious in nature... and with levity comes romance, enticement, or whatever one wishes to describe attraction.
~Time Lord~

 

Yes, she could be a fun character, however, any scripting done at this point and going forward will now be obscured by this 500g reward placed into the game as an incentive to visit her. Many people now see her as an ATM, unfortunately.

 

Perhaps the requirement to get paid will change? She currently serves this secondary purpose to help those less fortunate, but that could always be offloaded to someone/something else as the Oracle's reason for existence is reevaluated/revealed to us.

 

Venus is an interesting archetype for sure... it is the planet of Love and yet also the Light-bringer.

According to one version of the mythology, Lucifer had so much love for his fellow beings, that he conceived of something even greater than eternal perfection... eternal imperfection... growth... evolution... the ability to become more than what one is.

Then there is the story of the Ra Collective... a group of highly evolved beings who came to Earth from Venus- again out of love- in order to "assist" their lesser-evolved cousins to grow... yet after a relatively brief "Golden Age" had their teachings corrupted and used to establish an "elite" class of Priest-Kings whose "rule by divine authority" quickly degenerated into perpetual wars fought by petty tyrants and psychopathic megalomaniacs. For all of their good intentions, they failed to perceive the naivety of offering "assistance" to those who have not explicitly asked for it.

Some might even suggest that our repressed memories of those times is still what drives people to "elect" warmongers, psychopaths, and megalomaniacs to our most "trusted" leadership positions... but I digress...

It's hard to say whether these archetypes were consciously chosen by the storytellers behind these games, or whether they just naturally emerge because of our inability to access any information dynamics outside of our own ring-pass-not.

For example, the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom is a subset of the Flower of Life. Is that on purpose? Or is it just a byproduct of the fact that all geometric relations are already implicit within the Flower?

Anyway... back to the Oracle... I found it interesting that @Time Lord refers to her as loving, childlike, and an inspiration to wonder. I don't perceive any of those qualities in her... but perhaps that is because she is merely a projection screen, and we each see whatever we "want" to see.

 

I would have to concur with this point.

 

Oh and yes... I have played around with mapping the virtue system to various geometries.

Interestingly, I eventually came up with a 3x3 grid with one axis representing space/being and the other time/doing. Also I found that I couldn't justify "Courage" as a fundamental aspect of being-ness and used "Joy" instead... that very aspect that brings the quality of levity to life that TL refers to.

I understand though why "Courage" is chosen from the standpoint of an adventure game with the obligatory hack-and-slash component. Still as was pointed out way back in the beginning of this thread, it can certainly be argued on a situational basis that staying one's hilt can be the more courageous act.

 

Considering that the virtue system had its beginnings in Ultima 4, I do think that a re-evaluation of it would be in order, rather than continuing along this same paradigm.

 

...

The reasons I see her in a child-like nature is because she is non-articulate within her responses where even a chat-bot would seem to display more depth. A child does not need to expand on their reasoning and therefore leans to the dictator and purveyor of what they wish the parent to do for them. When asked or volunteered, the child's logic is then revealed to have no substance other than their self desire which they would not be capable of rational answer. "Love" on the other hand, is the variable which can never be fully explained yet can have an evil, good, self or selfless explanation for it. Explaining or articulating one's self are the marks of an learned adult or a book learned child, and love benefits only a described target. Truth, Love and Courage all have direction and when that direction remains unknown, then it must be seen as a hidden target, a target which quest makers as Lord British have well displayed within their works to mislead the assuming nature of their seekers.



Love is a more free radical than courage is. Courage is nothing more than a disregard for one's personal safety, where Love means so many things it can never be fully explained. "How I love thee" has endless words to describe just as "How I love me" also has the same. We are not lead within our modern societies to think of sacrifice in the same way as historical people have within our pasts and as such may not fully understand Love and Courage from such perspectives. The suicide soldier knows they are a sacrifice, yet when soldiers of a more aggressive leader would never tell their soldiers that they were "going to die", rather they would withhold such information and leave the soldier to their (possibly) unwanted fate, a fate which came from one leader who did "Love" in some direction (self, the whole, principals or whatever), disregarding whatever was hidden knowledge from the recipient to the order. "Love" as a free radical with no restraint in disregarding other virtues and is therefore more pliable yet still proceeding in a direction. In this way, our Oracle is directing without explanation or subject to questioning and thus child-like to obtain it's final goal without letting go of it's final reason to be known. Our Oracle also displays a paranoia which is also a child-like quality of being caught within some contrivance. It's constant checks by it's observing minions is well evident, leading to our suspect of some hidden and therefore sinister nature. To be an over controlling adult is also not a quality of trust and therefore truth. We all seek the truth of the Oracle, yet with it's overwhelming paranoid behavior, how could we trust in it if it dose not also trust in us? The only other ways this could be seen are that eye's allow us to see our path, yet with a need for so many eyes leads to a natural need for so many eyes. It's this natural need which displays the paranoia and thus the Oracle's distrust of what's needed to see enough to suite it's hidden purposes, because paranoia is mistrust and therefore a hidden truth within the Oracle as an observer.

... "when I wake up this will all make no sense to me"

The Oracle has no eyes beyond it's minion observers and "we" are the extension of those minion eye's reach to see beyond town boundaries. The Oracle as a device seems to have no weapons system (child-like) and therefore uses "us" as it's protectorate (parental, or companion) or provider within it's will to reach out using "us" as it's agent to do so ("Moma I want milk or candy"...or... "Bring me roses, candy and gifts when you come to see me"). It compels us to do things as one would a lover (enjoined companion) with common goals, yet on our part very assuming within our trust (not to mention providing us dinner and a drink with gold so we in turn then satisfy her pleasure).

The Oracle has not manifested outside it's created egg, so why would we assume that it's anything more than a child, unless it was born an adult. A child is book read educated and has no experience and our Oracle is the same unless within metamorphosis one considers the worm to have had the experiences of the butterfly it will become in some before time.



Loving is a free radical which provides the Oracle's direction and it's book learned or computer programed self has not experience and therefore can be nothing more than a child, or a butterfly which contains only the memory of a worm, or genetic makeup which still has had no experience to be an good authority of leadership.



Our Oracle is seemingly leading us, yet has never lead anything before ...
~Time Lord~

 

An interesting perspective of growing conscious
​

 

Intesting.

I visited sotacon this weekend which was perfectly timed from my perspective for me to be able to attend, since I would have not have been able to attend an event like this a year ago even if I wanted to. so I consider it quite a milestone for me personally not just for the game being near is last 20% of development.

Not sure how that relates to this post and to oracles and spirituality. however I suspect there is a common theme presented here that external spirituality based solely upon belief and subjective data tends to result in paranoia, fear of approval, uncertainty (since we are detached or separated from the divine either by distance or corrupt nature). the results of this external truth attempted to be attained to or learned by a "seeker" of truth subjects the seeker to follow those whom they believe are enlightened.

If there is only one person enlightened such as David Koresh or Ghandi, then life is not too chaotic but the more people who a person comes in contact with who appears to be enlightened and the seeker is trying to attain to enlightenment there seems to be the threat of terror and delusions because at this point the seeker does not know if the enlightened actually know their thoughts or possibly even are part of a conspiracy or supernatural divine flow of which the seeker has yet to attain to and the completly unaware are oblivious causing the seeker to wish they knew nothing of what they believed and if that is impossible then the seeker will always remain in a state of paralized and paranoid submission to the group mind if one exists. such thinking could lead one to extend the belief that theyve encountered more enlightened people if they happen to say things that line up with a current theme of thought in the seeker that triggers them to bow assume they are being followed or they are being tested or initiated or abducted by aliens or whatever other cuckoo idea there is.

Most people have it much easier. not many people take anything seriously. the purist seeker is the most vulnerable and most likely to destroy their lives or live in an asylum. while some who attend a cult might not think nearly as much as the seeker who has tasted some form of awareness that there are reoccurring patterns and resolve that there really is a truth but they are just one step away from grasping at it (and unfortunately may always feel like the next breakthrough is right around the corner and it never comes). it is difficult if not impossible for a person in that state of mind to live an ordinary life since their thoughts will cycle and have no foundation.

However I propose that Truth must be within. it has become painfully clear to me that nothing in this world can be know as Truth from the position of an observer looking at it from afar. all perception is filtered through this lense and nothing in the world makes sense. the seeker has self-pity since his life is being effeted by an external power that they have no clue how to deal with nor where it comes from. the seeker percieves themselves as the victim of a supernatural authority and even other people who seem to be in a position of authority as insiders of this spiritual or political or whatever the hell it is. life has absolutely no damn meaning since everything external is in utter chaos unable to be tapped into nor controlled.


******************

However if one seeimg Truth residing within is not a seeker, but an observer of external things accepting these things as they are. all of the strange occurances and and unexplained coincidences may never be explained or may be understood differently over time. however the anchor for the observer's mind resides in the essence of the observer (which could be defined as the Spirit). then for the observer everything that occurs or is said is just observed and taken at face value and life is an interesting adventure or whatever but there is no room for an external spiritual experience to be attained to nor is there a need to earn the approval of others to attain to or maintain some sort of goal or spiritual path since the Spirit is within and the observer can go anywhere and see anything without assigning a metaphysical meaning or even drawing a conclusion that there is a conspiracy or relationship between otherwise unrelated events without having any solid reproducible data to back that up.

 

Now I personally am not saying I have attained to perfection of mind or the ideal belief. Although it seems impossible to function if things are always happing for a reason always trying to understand the meaning behind wjat people are saying because everything has a double meaning.

If there were no internal Truth nor the ability to draw identity and value from within, then there would be no hope for a person like me to find an anchor to reboot my mind. even a simple trip to sotacon could become a difficult stream of chaos full of dread and conspiracy theories popping pills to ease the mind's distress but would still miss out on the potential fun and experience of life.

No child is born with this type of hardening of the mind, it is taught and this cult mentality is the most harmful killer. fortunately for most people in cults they don't take their cults seriously enough to experience the logical conclusion of it.

 

Very true... indoctrination is something that all of us experience at some time or another. Some indoctrinations are known while others are much more insidious, which doesn't mean that they are either good or bad, yet it does mean that we may (and most likely) have been and are indoctrinated.

When it comes to our game and Oracle, I believe that it falls within a known human response whether or not she will be wished to be visited more (like on a 1-10 scale), that scale being her entertainment value. We've all made time to go and visit that grandmother or grandfather that was the light of our life or pleasing to be around, yet some of those old ones were grew to be or were, just not the sort of people one makes much time for that visit to see them. We all want to go and see that person (family or not) that is just a joyous wonder to be around and interact with.

We don't know whether or not our Oracle is a young or old one, yet the young are always more entertaining for longer periods of time and the old ones tend to dry out as their dominance from experience tends to become a classroom of their own indoctrination.

For me, I like the classics, yet I like allot more of the modern and what's new to be entertained with.
~Time Lord~

 

Ghost in the shell?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell


For me, a person who has spent much of my life around people who I couldn't, speak the languages of, a matter of figuring out their world by observing their customs, actions, semiology and more importantly what they display in visually recognizable similes which I feel are a product of what deeper meaning there is within their intent or direction. Ghost in the Shell is one of those similes which could bring us more deep into the understanding of what our Oracle "could be". Everything in life is always based on something else right?



Graphic Warning Rated PG-17

Spoiler

Artwork is one of the ways we could see where our Oracle could be coming from... if only in a directional and fractal sense of what may be, or become. Many times within our entertainment industry, there's always something which leads or complements another, made for it's release's timings...

Whatcha' Tink ?
~Time Lord~

 

Seems like a paradox @Timelord

Unpluging is nessisary for freedom of thought, but pulling away from humanity will result with a horrific fate.

This imagery brings me back to the virtue of Humility, which comes last but is the foundation of the virtues.

As much as I try would to lower myself to make myself humble towards humanity the more pride I see at work in my mind.

The fulfillment of humility must be ascension, but if pride exists while trying to decend then humility must be fulfilled when the acention of everyone is seen without effort. inclusion not exclusion.

 

I have heard the similar idea that there are no 'good' people. People are 'evil' for the idea of pursuing personal gain. When you understand the concept of group gain then your good actions also give personal gain and often your long term gain is superior. Good people gain benefit from their actions, so it is really only a different type of greedy.

By extension, there really might not be any truly evil people. Sometimes people are put in a position with poor choices. And then there are a lot of stupid people. Truly truly bad people who are not simply idiots are rare. (And often go on to positions in government.)

The concepts we link many of these morality words to are really all artificial and most of them are relitive in meaning. If an ant walks west across a boat, and the boat is being blown south, but the boat is a toy in a bucket carrried by a child and the child is walking west, but he is walking west on a train traveling north.... which way is the ant traveling?

 

Spoiler: My answer

Clearly the answer must be east? Yes? That is the direction the world spins. We are all traveling east, very quickly.

 

Perhaps this is why the virtues show Spirituality coming right before humility. the light within coming out. the white stone.

Humility is the final ring around all inclusive

Well if the write above is correct and the Oracle's responses to an avatar are based upon the action of the avatar... I'm not sure.

I've heard that all people have both good and evil. if the knowledge of Good is also tied to the knowledge of evil then trying to be good and denying evil might be lying to ones self. Word of faith movements are full of great actors from what I've heard from those who have moved on from those movements.

So how does an avatar distingish themselves from the delusional to the reality? if all are avatars, then gow does an avatar distinguish themselves as "avatar" amongst avatars? avatar the noun, to using avatar the verb. if evil isn't the problem then maybe the oracle is the sounding board for light rather than darkness? or maybe she is an avatar like the air which swirls around the movements of matter to illustrate the ripples of our actions?

***this is just my observations and me ecchoing what I'm observing. not some declaration or teaching. just my thoughts swirling as I move through this conversation. I didn't think of this stuff last week ***