Make it hard so that my sword screams in pain

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lyndoman, Dec 22, 2016.

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  1. Lyndoman

    Lyndoman Avatar

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    I don't like all this Manbaby talk about it's too hard to get property, or the price of this will go up or my sword repairs cost so much I have to collect donkey dung to pay for the COTOS.

    I want the game to be hard.

    At least certain aspects of the game, I want to be intellectually challenged, where I have to think hard and plan if I want to make the new Bone Bed, with the extra red satin sheets.

    Certain sought after items should be really, really hard to get and demand high level thinking and a lot of working together.

    For example, making the mines, multiplayer, PVP only.

    Gasp!
    I hear from forum posts leaking from the future.

    I realise that would be a real harsh move, but think out it would effect the social fabric of the game.
    The value of collaboration would rise.
    Player interaction would increase, even if it were just from crafters such as myself talking to hardcore PVP people to buy ore off them. They wont have the time to craft as they are cracking skulls in the mine and so therefore crafted items rise in value.

    Maybe not this example, but I think something in the game should be mind grindingly hard, it should scrape the skin a little.

    Someone would have to gird the DEVS loins though.
    As I am sure there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forum,
    But that's a fun part of the game too ;)

    May I remind all that this is a game.
    Games are supposed to be hard.
    We don't play games because they are easy.
    We play games because they are hard.
     
  2. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Man you are at least as old as me (Aka you are getting old!).
    But that changed like ten years back when the first smartphones introduced the concept of instant and constant gratification.
     
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  3. Lyndoman

    Lyndoman Avatar

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    Oh I was there when the quote I stole from was first made ;)

    We do not go to the Moon because it is easy.
    We go because it is hard.


    This is true, but then there are successful games like Eve.
    One way for Shroud of the Avatar to stand out is for certain aspects of the game to be hard. Not all of it, and only if you chose to play the game a certain way.

    But the fact that some aspect of the game becomes harder is a GOOD THING people.

    Rejoice when the DEVS make it harder.
     
  4. Glantor Edge

    Glantor Edge Avatar

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    Greetings @Lyndoman ,

    I agree that mid to late game, SOTA should be ball busting difficult so that it's challenging even for players who have the luxury of time and passion to play on. Games nowadays are far too easy and bore me.

    However, I would like to add another suggestion: Make the early to mid-tier levels much, much easier. How easy? Try WoW type of on rails, guided tutorial easy.

    The main issue I foresee for SOTA is not the depth nor the content, but more of sucking hordes of people into the game. This is an MMORPG, we need a thriving and active community to make the game the success it deserves to be!

    There was a nice discussion we had in Discord just now, here are the suggestions made by @Voltaic copied and pasted:

    UO had the Haven starting area iirc that was somewhat on rails (for an Ultima game)

    I would definitely recommend an island. When I first started the second I left Soltown I was like: WHOA this map is huge!

    A nice starter island would have: An NPC city where everything is easy-to-find but immersive. NPCs give quests. Outside there are three 1-skull areas, two 2-skull areas and one 3-skull area, plus a 1-skull mine and a 2-skull multi-layer dungeon.

    I am thinking more of Ultima 4's starting point, Ultima 7's starting point and UO's Haven areas.

    IMO an ideal state of a player after leaving Haven is: In a good mood, hungry to explore more, good understanding of glyph system, combat, movement, how to interact with NPCs, basics of gathering resources and refining them, crafting simple things (such as your first set of armor and a weapon). Around character level 25 is possibly a nice time to leave Haven.


    I would like to add on another aspect: Virtues.

    Virtues, especially Truth, have to be WARNED AND CAUTIONED ABOUT VERY EARLY ON. Most other games start players off in newbie areas where players have a habit of looting everything they see, in case they need it early on and regret not taking something early on. This was the plight many of my guild mates faced, which quite frankly turned a number of them off the game once they discovered they were not Virtuous because of early mistakes. It's not cool to play with people's feelings like that.

    SOTA does not exist in it's own perfect world. It needs to be very aware of the changing nature of games over the years and not be stuck in the olden ways of "create a game and people will come". Gaming is now a multi-billion dollar industry and there is so much competition it is not funny. I really, really want this game to succeed and hope the Devs will at least take a look and seriously consider the above suggestions to appeal to the mass market.

    i.e. Once you sucker them in, you can punish them however you like.

    @DarkStarr @Lord British @Chris

    Cheers,
    Glantor Edge
     
  5. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    I like the game being hard , taking time to collect things, to craft, to develop skills...
    And I don't rush through it by grinding.
    I feel it's well challenging me and I just need to take care to not compare to others who maybe have more time, money, skill , balls :p

    I like the Game for being hard to go further and to be no theme park where everything is easy to get!!!
     
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  6. Glantor Edge

    Glantor Edge Avatar

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    I agree, I like the game being as hard as it is. Maybe even harder once new zones / PVP areas open up.

    However, I would like to see the addition of a super easy, generic Tutorial area for starters. I understand it is intended for starting areas like Solace Bridge / Blood river / Highvale to play that role. However, it is still far too difficult / confusing for new players. Need a dead easy, idiot proof one for a start. Then the wheat can be separated from the chaff later on in the corresponding Virtue/class starter areas on the larger.

    One suggestion is a "floating island" separated from the rest of the populace. Right after Avatars have customised their looks, they can take the moongate to that starter island to have a feel of combat / harvesting / crafting. It can even be on rails / guided and instanced, so other old timer players can't take advantage of this area once they leave.

    Thanks,
    Glantor Edge
     
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  7. Ravalox

    Ravalox Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    When they "outgrow" the area, they get shuffled to the real start points. and this area should be optional.

    Should be limited resources that can be obtained; enough to give them a taste of the systems.
     
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  8. Kaisa

    Kaisa Avatar

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    Well I actually play games because I find them fun not because they are hard ;) Sure making certain things hard/harder might be a good idea. But making things hard won't automatically make it fun. There would need to still be a balance and you would have to be careful to avoid just turning the game into a second job or something.
     
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  9. Lyndoman

    Lyndoman Avatar

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    I agree absolutely.

    Agree also, this game will only succeed if hordes of hungry, fresh faced noobs come charging over the hill. The positive thing is that this is one of the best communities I have ever seen and the most helpful. It is the experienced player that will make a difference here.

    This is a very good idea. @Voltaic has a very good point.

    I think we are all agreed, the game should be harder for mid to high level players and nice at easy at the beginner and easy levels.

    As I understand it, the tutorial aspect of the game has yet to be fully implemented and it's hardcore types like us who have paved the way. A lot of tutorial help will come from the players themselves. As we are invested in the game.
     
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  10. Glantor Edge

    Glantor Edge Avatar

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    Oh yes, good point. It should be a small floating island where you can run to the end to Exit it.

    Actually, why not simply expand the existing "floating island" with the Avatar Customisation and Moongate to include this? There is no real need to even create another area. Just get the Lady Arabella to give you a few simple quests when you speak with her, purely optional of course. It's a perfect location and shielded from other players!

    "Avatar, I would love to have some Pumpkin soup! Could you grab some from over there and cook for me? I've been standing here the whole day with nothing to eat! (guiding you buffoons on how to play this game)"

    "Watch out for those nasty (aka super easy to kill) wolves guarding those Pumpkins! Don't ask me why or how they got here though."

    "I can teach you how to make Pumpkin Soup! For other skills, you can ask any Crafting or Adventurer trainers to teach you for a fee!"

    Cheers,
    Glantor Edge
     
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  11. Lyndoman

    Lyndoman Avatar

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    You say that, but then look at something like Flappy Bird or even Rubiks Cube.

    Games are about achieving something. solving a problem, if that achievement is easy or easily and quickly solved it loses the engagement of people.

    The question arises, why do we play games?

    Why do we play this game?

    The answer may be different for each individual, but the majority are going to share commonalities.

    For someone who wants an easy game, like Farmville for example, I would never recommend a game like this. A particular type of person is going to be attracted to Shroud and games like it, and these are people who thirst to solve complex problems.
     
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  12. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    There's a difference between tedium and challenge. Very few people have any problems with a game being challenging if it is fun.
     
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  13. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    @Glantor Edge I do myself like to investigate "hardcore" games and I like to not know everything from the beginning.
    I like to learn the ropes and if this is difficult and not guided, really. Last time I spent a lot of hours was into the earlier version of the repopulation , especially it's crafting system (they shut down and did an action survival instead to get money for further developing what was initially intended, no hopes anymore , the crafting was the best I've ever seen after vanguard, especially the ingame database, where all raw materials to intermediates and all versions of intermediate and or final product could be investigated , while they were linked up to where to find the ressources on the map etc... )

    But I see that a lot of future outlanders may aren't have enough patience to work it all out or want to ask Hospitallers etc... and would prefer a "Guided Tour through core components". Maybe we get an option of "tutorial island" or "rough shore starting"
     
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  14. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    I love the idea.
    I just see one big problem: that would force a complet rewrite of the whole story questlines and areas.
     
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  15. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    Not if the tutorial island is a dream in between you were "soaked in" and materialize in New Britannia.
     
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  16. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    It still would need new areas, enough quests, level balancing and a connection to the "real" world from a story point ov view.
    That's a lot of work.
     
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  17. Glantor Edge

    Glantor Edge Avatar

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    Thanks!

    I do not think a rewrite of anything is necessary. As I proposed a little earlier (you might have missed it), the starting area can simply be an expansion of the island you first land on before you create your character. To quote:

     
  18. Andartianna

    Andartianna Avatar

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    I would like some level 6+ skull areas added so we can keep growing. When you start getting several GMs it gets to a point where you would like some new higher areas to train in.
     
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