Polygon: Richard Garriott: the man, the myth, the mischief

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by smack, Jan 30, 2017.

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  1. Myrcello

    Myrcello Avatar

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    Nope. Not of course i do.

    They could have said it that the customer is not placed in the "his fault" position.

    I give it a try:


    We had been unaware of the challenges of setting the right customer expectations with our formulatin of our Vision of what the Game is aiming to be at kickstarter.
    We had only 3 months prior time to set all up from demo, to description to forming a team. It is often a challenge to communicate a vision to your own teammembers. So even harder to present this to a customer.
    SotA design announcement was targetet at our complete prior fanbase - Solo Gamers from Ultima and UO Multiplayers.
    We announced that SotA will have the best of both. But should have been more clear that it still is neither at the end but something different.
    Neither a full standalone Single Game , neither a full standalone Sanbox.
    This has caused to some degree understandable negative reviews.
    We are focusing on still creating a fun experience for all of them.
    And combat is still a passionate subject as it is a main part of gaming experience. This reflects in the reviews also.
    But we are also not finished with combat development and are confident that at the end we will please expectations.

    ------------

    This is less offensive to your customers but delivers the same message.
    Customers take it very positive if the producer admits unexpected challenges.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
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  2. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    I agree.
    But that's my whole point. We have to ask ourselves why they delivered the message the way they did.
    In my opinion it is because we really annoyed them that much. We are hardly a productive community anymore.
    Cabin fever took care of that.
    We are the biggest unexpected challenge they face.
     
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  3. Hornpipe

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    Explore/Create allowed me to discover Richard Garriott's failures and accomplishements through an informative and enjoyable reading. I finished it days ago and I'm am happy to have had the curiosity to buy it. At first, I thought that the release of this book and its promotion on SOTA website were "off topic". I was wrong.

    The writing style is clear and the book is filled with funny anecdotes and exercices. I could certainly tell a lot more about it but, just like the author, I know how to keep secrets.

    I recommand it. This book is an incentive to curiosity, openness, and even if Richard Garriott has been lucky in his life, as he writed himself, he has many very interesting things to tell us.

    About the game, it's making progress. I don't agree with every patch note and I'm sure no one do. Even the devs are certainly displeased when announcing a canceled/delayed feature.

    But with time (and money, yes), I think Shroud of the Avatar has the potential to become as enjoyable as Ultima series. From a certain point of view, it already surpasses its ancestors. It's currently an unfinished game so it's understandable to have doubts. No problem with that.

    For my part, I am confident because every patch give us tips on devs vision and projects and I'm happy with it. Time will tell me if I'm right or not. In any case, kickstarting something like SOTA and looking deep into its development was a great experience for me, with one thousand hours of playing as well !

    Thank you Portalarium.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  4. Bubonic

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    There seems to be a lot of unintentional irony in this quote. I'm not sure when you joined our community... but in the beginning, it was sunshine and roses. The tone soured over the years, and it wasn't "just because". A long series of questionable decisions and poor communication had a huge effect on the community at large.

    They answered the way they did because they had to. The game has not been officially released, and they have to put the best face possible face on the situation to keep people on board (and hopefully attract new customers).

    To say that it's because of the community just brushes all the problems under the rug and passes the buck. In my opinion, you're giving us too much credit.

    On another note and to get back on topic, I am personally very interested in the new book and will be picking it up this week.
     
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  5. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Click on my forum handle and find out.
    I was there when everything was happy happy joy joy. Never trusted it anyway to be honest.
    It had to turn sour at some point.

    No, i really don't. At least in my opinion.

    Guess i will get the eBook ^^
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    Amen to that.

    Starr began his time here by posting this message on September 3rd, in DEV+. He later felt like it might do some good if everyone could read this message so he posted it publicly.
    Now if you take the time to go back and look at that thread you'll find that there are a lot of people that didn't agree with Starr (some of them in this very thread). Which is fine I guess, it's their prerogative. I'm not sure what exactly they know about game development but whatever.

    I highlighted a couple of lines above in blue because I think it's important to ask yourself, was it Portalarium that didn't deliver on promises? Or was it just like they said it would be? Starr had only been on the team for a few months, wasn't even involved in the original Kickstarter, tried to explain as best he could that the game design was going to change, had to change, and could never be whatever it was some people had in their imagination. Yet here we are years later with people who either didn't get the message the first time, or refuse to get the message now.

    I'm glad the devs have finally started to defend themselves a little bit. I'm also a customer, and I'm damn happy with the game so far even though we obviously still have a long way to go. All I know is that if I spent years being an antagonist to this game and then after the launch I decided, "Oh it really is a great game, yay! You did it developers!" I'm not sure that would quite make up for the ridiculous amount of push back and constant skepticism that this team has had to take on.
     
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  7. UnseenDragon

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    Richard is usually pretty transparent about what he thinks went well and what has not. Sometimes these do not align with my views, but I'm usually confident he's being honest and not just giving PR speak.
     
  8. 2112Starman

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    Ive read your multiple arguments and I disagree on foundation. You start with the assumption that the game is flawed and bad. I disagree with that. I think this game is still in alpha with major content being build and refinement pass's coming for probably every system before first release (much less the 4 after that).

    I play this game all the time and I have fun playing it exactly how it is now. As things get refined (especially PvP), I will have even more fun and add more things to randomly do every day.

    Its easy for the arm chair observer to throw out alternate facts but I do trust Richard and Starr on the merit of what they say, they have the data, you do not.
     
  9. Lord_Darkmoon

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    If the "dirty process of development" brings so many changes then maybe Kickstarter is the wrong platform to use for funding. Other games like Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun, Wasteland 2, Divinity etc. stayed pretty close to what was announced during the Kickstarter campaign. People trusted the developers to deliver the game that was announced. That was what they gave money for. Not for some illusive "maybe you will get this or that" but for a certain vision.
    What can I expect when the Kickstarter for Episode 2 starts? Will we get what is announced there or will we get something else in the end?
     
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  10. WrathPhoenix

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    It is silly to compare the development methods and products even to the kickstarter games like Pillars of Eternity. All of those games had an extremely closed development process where they simply took the money and went to work behind closed doors and then wound up delivering the product they chose. Those products were also vastly more limited in scope than that of Shroud of the Avatar. From the very beginning, SotA's developers explicitly said they wanted to work together with the community to build this game and from the very first available build they made it available for viewing and input.

    It is also worth noting that it is extremely "easy" (not saying development is easy - quite the opposite), especially for proven developers, to put together a limited scope vision on an offline title and present it to everyone for crowd funding. Because of that limited focus, if you are not having a two way relationship with the fans during development then it is almost certain that no matter what you said... the final product could easily be compared to and proven to be in line with the initial vision. Portalarium could have chosen to go that route themselves but they didnt. They chose to go the harder route because they thought (and I agree) that the end product would wind up better in the end.
     
  11. Lord_Darkmoon

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    And still then Kickstarter is the wrong platform. People give money for what is announced. If you don't want to stick to this vision because you want to make a game that changes during development, then don't collect money up front for a vision you don't want to keep or can't keep. Then collect money "on the way". But you simply cannot announce one game, collect money and then deliver something else. This is not ok. If they announce the Kickstarter for Episode 2 I don't know what to expect because I can't stick to what is written on the Kickstarter site.
     
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  12. Drocis the Devious

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    Two very important things to remember here...

    1. None of those games were open development. You paid in, you sat around waiting for a game. They delivered a FINISHED game, and you happened to enjoy it.
    2. Your expectations and interpretations may not represent what was actually stated during the Kickstarter. You may also have very rigid expectations as to what should be allowed to change over time. This is not the fault of the development team, it's the arbitrary limitations and religious debates manufactured by players. In the games you mention above, they're all side scrolling, dungeon crawls. Multiplayer is either not possible or highly limited, and the goals of those games are not as broadly based as SOTA. It's just like Tides of Numenera, which comes out soon. I'm sure that will be well received since it's following the same formula as those other games. SOTA in no way shape or form was ever supposed to be what those games are.
     
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  13. mass

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    I don't think kickstarter necessitates open development. I've backed other projects that provided updates, but ultimately, just worked on it until it was complete and let you have the final product.

    I know when I read Richard's response to the negative feedback, it felt very much like the corporate mantra of 'never admit fault'. They basically subscribe to the idea that if you engage in discussing your potential role in negative feedback, some will grab on to it as: 'See, they admit they wronged us.' I would have thought not having a corporate publisher would alleviate some of this thinking, but you would be naive to think this dev group isn't business savvy. As well, I think there is a select group of players that work closely with the dev's that remain highly positive about the project. That might alter their perception compared to an outsider simply reading the internet at large.

    Just wanted to add: Congrats on the book! One of the actually interesting lives in recent times that deserves a write up!
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
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  14. Drocis the Devious

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    Of course, but who's doing that? SOTA never said it would be Pillars of Eternity or anything like it.

    What I think is equally something that is "not ok" is if people went to Pillars of Eternity 2 and said "this is nothing like SOTA! How dare you!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  15. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Actually, in my opinion, the corporate publisher usually takes the brunt of that kind of "**** storms".
     
  16. majoria70

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    and maybe it takes a certain path to get there. ;)
     
  17. smack

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  18. mass

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    True. I would expect crowdfunded projects to operate differently. Maybe that expectation is not valid.
     
  19. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Well from my personal experience it isn't valid. And that's not about sota only. It's about roughly 80% of KS or ea projects I am part of.
     
  20. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Who said that SotA should be like Pillars of Eternity? If I would say something like that then I would say "SotA should be the storydriven basically soloplayer game with the option to play online like Richard Garriott said."
    But I gave up on this. SotA is what it is. But it isn't the game that was announced anymore.
     
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