“Totally not an !” or Quest Markers must go

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Leinad Laurelwreath, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

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    It is interesting to see how this discussion goes.
    On the one hand some people here defend the decision that SotA is a hardcore game, a niche game. It needs to be hard and complex. People have to figure things out by themselves, This is part of the fun! Portalarium is going the right way with this.
    But suddenly we get the most casual feature a game can offer and suddenly the same people are no longer defending the hardcore and niche nature of the game. No longer is it ok or even neccessary for the players to invest lots of time to learn the game. Suddenly it is ok to get the most casual feature ever invented in SotA. Very interesting behaviour...
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  2. Sir Cabirus

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    It doesn't matter that this 'achievement' is optional! Good designed quests doesn't need such things - Ultima 7 is a very good example for this. With all respect, I believe these glowing NPCs are nothing more than a substitute for good made quests. And a gift for the MMO crowd who are used to these kind of game mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  3. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Exactly. Strange that in other RPGs it is no problem finding the NPCs even without an "!" above their heads. But as I said, it doesn't seem that good design of quests and having a great and immersive adventure has much of a priority anymore - if it ever had priority... Sorry to say that but this is how it feels.
     
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  4. Numa

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    Annika the blacksmith in Soltown actively waves & calls periodically to draw attention to herself. Aside from that NPC I don't know of any other that does it to that extent. There are some that cry or talk to themselves at least to give some indication of a possible quest - that is, assuming you were paying close attention to your surroundings.
     
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  5. Net

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    Well, I am all for proper map system. Actual maps instead of GPS navigation compass.

    Anyway, I do not mind optional handholding features as long as they can be turned off. I am glad that I do not have to suffer runic translations on overland map.

    Also, I think that perhaps some handholding features should be available only to avatars below certain level. They might help people get into the game, but once they know their way around they should not really need them.
     
  6. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    First there was bag mode vs. list mode. I use bag mode, but it hasn't received any love to make it more functional/interesting/usable.. they say if you want more utility just switch to list mode. Merchant windows are in the 'list mode' theme despite me being in bag mode. it's not really catering to my style of play.

    Next is character names and the compass. I keep them toggled off. Unfortunately, most characters in the game still don't have unique appearances, many don't even have names at all yet. NPCs for the most part, don't know each other within their own towns yet either, so I can't ask them about each other, or for directions to basic places like the bank or the nearest exit. So instead I have to turn on name tags and the compass if I want to find anything. I don't want to use them, but in its current state, the game isn't immersive, so I'm playing with the UI rather than the game world itself.. so far I just don't play because it's not fun for me yet. I'll get in to test things, but not to play or have fun.

    Compass and gold, UI in general. Gold is not in the game, it's just a number on the UI. There is no compass in the game, it's just a UI window, floating outside the game. When people die, their stuff isn't in the game, it's floating in a UI casket, which looks like a container, but it's not. I should be able to use a dead bdy as a container, put stuff in it, take stuff out of it, but I can't. it's completely superficial. Over and over the choice is being made to separate us from the game world, and play with interface controls rather than the game world itself. Combat is a card game..

    Now there are maximum limits on containers that have no visual representation as to how full they are. In list mode there will likely be a number 8/16, to let you know it's half full.. but in bag mode? I get the feeling nothing is being done to make the game fun for me an my play style. I want the bags and boxes to visually fill up somehow if fill up they can. Don't just cut and paste from UO and UIX user interfaces and say 'there! you're welcome!'.. I think it's worth a few man hours trying to come up with some new innovations in the immersive UI department, making something that is intuitive and practical and fun, designed to work within the intended rules of this game. Now that the foundational systems are nearing completion, I think it's a good time to circle back and work on this for us.

    As for the quest markers, I think a toggle for beginner quests is fine, but please guide people to learn to use the conversation system as it continues to progress, along with a pen and paper for notes and drawing maps to explore and discover and guide them to their destinations, rather than the glowing quest markers. Runic default on the in game maps is great. As an example, teach them to use the English toggle for these names in a starter quest, but in that quest, force them to learn to transcribe the runic in order to get the English toggle option. If they want to see English on the maps, make them sacrifice skill points for their characters to innately understand the runic.. and always keep the runic there, just show the English next to it. When players feel more comfortable reading the runic, they can unlearn the transcribe skill and put those points into something more useful. ;D

    Let's not sacrifice the niche, old-school, and especially immersive aspects of the game to cater to new players. The heart and soul of this game is in what makes it different. Easier doesn't equal better, or more fun. No easy buttons, no easy toggles. Please, no. And please don't view these non-immersive 'options' as solutions to gameplay issues. Put more developers on the conversation system to help NPCs recognize quest people and places, so that SotA players don't need the 'easy button'. thanks.
     
  7. majoria70

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    My point is this game has to evolve. Today it may look different than it ultimately will. It has to get developed and re-developed in some things. If it doesn't look right or feel right in the long run then that can be dealt with at that point. We will just wait and see.
     
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  8. Numa

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    The current quests are more like a series of scavenger hunts - bringing messages or things from this NPC to the next. If the quest action on your part leads to a consequence (whether positive or negative) then it would truly feel more like a quest. There are hints of this in the Path of Courage where you have to decide which faction's message should be delivered but there should be a more active participation on the avatar's part be it a trial of strength, a puzzle to be solved or a song to sing :)

    I don't mind being a glorified courier for NPCs once in a while - just not all the time. The presence or absence of the "blue glow" only matters if the quest foundations are solid. Then you really see whether a marker is truly necessary or not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  9. Andartianna

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    Quest markers are great. The majority of gamers do not have all day to talk to all the NPCs to find quest locations. It's nice that they have a feature to turn it off for the players that enjoy hardcore questing. We all have our types of game play we enjoy. I would welcome more inclusion across all types of play styles rather then one side or the other declaring one type of game play style is the end of yours when it's entirely OPTIONAL :/ .
     
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  10. Sir Cabirus

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    Maybe this is caused by different tastes. Some like meaningful PVP, some like a good told story with decisions to made and consequences, and some just like social action, synchronous dancing on a table within a crowd, decorating a house and so on. Some have no interest in a story. They hurry through the game, always zealous to raise their exp / skill points as fast as possible. It seems that this game is going to cater the last two groups I mentioned, more and more.
     
  11. Lord_Darkmoon

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    It is more about Richard Garriott stating that he didn't want it and now we get it nonetheless. It's about statements that there should be no hand-holding in the game yet now we get it. It's about being the simplest solution to this "problem" when there are way more elegant and immersive ways to solve it. It's about that always the adventure/story/quest part of the game gets such simple solutions. It's about the double standards of the community wanting a complex, hardcore nichegame without hand-holding but when suddenly such a casual element is introduced it is ok...
     
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  12. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Yeah but that's a different topic.
    What is puzzeling me are the very strong reactions and feelings that get flung around here about almost EVERY change that comes around.
    And we have a handful of people that think their opinion is the only truth out there and that everybody thinks the same as they do.
    Which is, obviously, wrong but they seem to be able to plainly ignore it.
    If it goes on like that i forsee dark times for this community.
     
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  13. Albert Baumhauer

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    I couldn’t agree more.
     
  14. Roycestein Kaelstrom

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    Just like many other game features, such as showing translated runic zone names or hiding npc names until you get to know them, these options can be turned on and off as needed. So don't like it, don't use it? What seems to be the problem here?

    Maybe it's just me, but I find there are many other things and recent real world incident s more horrifying and consider to be dark moments, having option to turn important npc highlighting on/off is not one of them.
     
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  15. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    In my opinion a big part of the problem is that people WANT to rage.
    About whatever.
     
  16. Sir Cabirus

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    The problem is, that such things are nothing more than a substitution for good developed quests. Good designed quests doesn't need such things! The presence of a quest marker leads to a lazy quest design.
     
  17. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    You mean like the PvP xp % bonus is just a substitution for for good developed pvp?
    Welcome to my world. So, how do you feel now that you are on the other side ;-)?
     
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  18. Roycestein Kaelstrom

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    Couldn't we say the same thing to the option to see npc name plate before we talk to them? Instead of relying on the description provide by previous npc or go all around the town and ask NPCs for their names, we have option to see their name right away. How would the highlight option be such significantly worse?

    It seems to me that there are concerns over meta-gaming leading to not making quests descriptive enough. But if that's really the case, then shouldn't we consider seeing zone names leading to lazy design as well? I mean after all, we're supposed to find out the zone names by talking to someone and memorize the name based on geography or by viewing a map, yes?
     
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  19. Dorham Isycle

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    I just realized, I've done more quests in Shards, a 200,00 project & still very unfinished than in here to date. It may be here the npc sticks their face in your face & you have to wade through a series of answers to maybe get a quest maybe not,(flapping their lips for you hear nothing) instead of a dialog window with several responses, 1 of which could get you guard wacked But you know your talking to an npc for a quest (even though there are no visual helper '!' or color highlights) not just talking to every damn npc in the f@#@ing game.
     
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  20. Jens_T

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    As other mentioned even with current game mechanics this could have been solved better:
    • NPC wave at you
    • Guardsmen, Town Crier and Barkeepers know about quests and point you to the people
    • Once a quest is known the NPC could be marked in the compass
    • NPC's generally should know the general location of other NPC and stores, in major cities this could be limited to the quarter / surroungings
    Some of these behaviours are already implemented in Soltown, however using a "glow" marker looks like a quick fix for something that would need more time & resources if done properly.
    I believe we have to discuss this in a polite and constructive way, especially as the problem should be fixable with existing technology.
     
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