Why did I love Ultima 7, and am 'meh' about SotA?

Hello community, I'm nearly ready to sell my royal founder SotA Knight Marshall account and here is the story why.

This was one of the Kickstarter promises

• Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with “Selective Multi-Player”.

and further

• Shroud of the Avatar is infused with rich storylines, deeply integrated into game play, developed by Best Selling Author Tracy Hickman and RPG legend Richard Garriott.
• Players will adventure in an interactive world where their choices have consequences, ethical paradoxes give them pause, and they play a vital part in weaving their own story into the immersive world and lore surrounding them.

Okay, I think the Ultima Online part is nearly done. That's very good for the UO fans here, but what is with the Ultima IV - VII fans? Do we have a story even more compelling than the story told in the Ultimas IV - VII? Do we have a storyline where our choices have consequences? I cannot detect these promised features.

Are there any signs that we will ever get such a story? At the very beginning of the development I had great hopes, that SotA will be a worthy successor of both worlds, a successor of the many single player Ultimas and a successor of Ultima Online. But as the years goes SotA turned more and more into a MMO UO sequel.

And it seems that's exactly the way, how Port want to develop this game. SotA was introduced in many MMO magazines, in the early access screenshot galleries screenshots with more than one person are preferred, the free trial of the game recently was without the single player offline mode and so on.

I'm just busy with replaying Ultima 7. What a great story, what an immersive and well designed world. This game is truly a treasure and will be one of my all time favourites. The only thing where SotA beats Ultima 7 is the graphics. But that's not enough for me and doesn't matter. I am missing the atmosphere of Ultima 7, the interaction with this world, I'm missing a complex and good told story, I'm missing companions with different backgrounds and preferences.

Yes I know, this game is still in development and the devs had to build the world first, have patience and so on and so forth. I cannot count how often I have read this sentence in the past years in this forum. And this is exactly the point - this game is in development since years and I cannot see much progress in the things which are important for me. To be honest, I've lost all my hope meanwhile, and this is the reason why I'm 'meh' about SotA

 

You raise excellent points. As someone who played the Ultima games, they have been as much my personal touchstone versus SotA as UO ever could be. Actually, they are more of a touchstone for me, than UO.

When talking to Richard on Twitter, he confirmed that the solo experience is all on him, which was great to hear but, like you, I don't see a lot of movement in that direction, which is quite worrying to me, really.

And as you touch on, yes, people will always say the game's not ready, have faith, etc. However, as we are four years along from the Kickstarter and this stuff isn't too apparent, when do blind faith and logic crossover?

 

As some one who has pretty much the same feelings, I agree. I am still sad about this games future and what could have been if it had gone in a different direction. However, Might I suggest just taking a break for a month or two or 6 before you give up. One never knows what might happen. Heck maybe they have things they have or cannot tell us...(seems unlikely) but maybe.

 

Sorry for you Sir Cabirus.

I will not tell you to wait. I tell you to believe in your own judgement.

 

I won't say wait, but I will say that that I've stopped playing and will wait it out till launch. Things can happen fast when the basics are in place... I just hope that is true here. Want a free copy of far cry while you wait? I have a 1, 2, 3, and blood dragon pack I'll give you. @Sir Cabirus

 

Good post!

We should totally have more "Why did I love _______, and am 'meh' about SotA?" threads on different games once a week for more critical discussion about games comparison.

 

Sir Cabirus, like you I backed this game because of my fond memories of the original Ultima series (I never played UO, so this is my first experience with the MMO aspect... ) While I have certainly have enjoyed the social aspects associated with this ( i.e., regular events), I am growing weary of the "grind", and like you, have been looking forward to the rich storyline and companions we have come to associate with past Ultimas While this will obviously be the last thing revealed prior to launch, I am also frustrated by the seeming lack of progress in this area The introduction of the eight Cabalists does offer me some signs of hope, though If they are fleshed out in greater detail, with individual personalities and motivations (i.e., separate storylines) beyond their stated shared goal (i.e., overall Obsidian storyline), I would be most pleased While it has certainly taken longer than expected to get the basic systems in place (still quite a bit of tweaking to do...) , I still have faith that Richard and his team will deliver what they promised us...

 

Come on...this is at least a natural extension of the other thread considering the two main camps of backers here.

But if your serious, I'll start my 'Leisure Suit Larry' thread. There's definitely something missing in SOTA compared to that classic.

 

And we should also get started on two seperate threads for Double Dragon 3 - The Rosetta Stone, and Double Dragon 3 - The Sacred Stones, because although the plot of the two versions are similar, the graphics, gameplay system and characters featured in the arcade version are very different compared to the NES version.

 

This is the first game I have had pre-release access too - I wonder if we would even be debating these points if no one was allowed access until release (I mean that the game was released in the traditional way)? That is, the blessing of early access is the early access itself but the curse is the disappointment of watching something grow slowly - sometimes painfully. Would I change anything? No - not really. Ultima 7, UO, Ultima 6 - all great games that most people had access to after release....Part of the great experience for me with this project is being part of the growth process. It's something new that I have never had the privilege of being apart of before. I'm trying to enjoy it as oppose to lament it.

 

I notice people saying stuff like that from time to time on the forum; often it seems that this is their only experience of seeing a game made. Having experienced it elsewhere, I have to say it's not always the case at all.

I've followed games where a title has had ups and downs, but generally stayed on target, and generally pleased people. I must confess I always get a little itchy when someone starts saying, "Oh, {insert particular issue here} is only because we're in the factory seeing the sausages get made..." and, no, that's not it, because -- again -- I've seen it work much better than this. I agree the process can be an eye opener, but it's not the only possible reason people have issues with something.

There are some aspects of SotA -- and I'll pick on the single player game versus the multi player game as an example to highlight this -- which have profoundly divided people and really ticked some off (almost) from the start.

 

Many thanks for your generous offer But I have so many games in the shelf which are waiting to be played, and so less time. I fear it will not make much sense to add further game(s) to the shelf. Anyway - thank you again for your friendly offer

 

You know I will be sorry if you give up. It is very tiring and frustrating to keep hoping and not seeing the progress you want take shape. I totally understand this believe me. I have had moments to argue with myself and to stay in the present moment not imagining doom and gloom which being human I can do as well as anyone. Facts are there for you to look. What is not there is what will happen going forward that part is only story and insinuating and not actual. If you run out of patience and are tired of the battle fine, but I still believe you should still contribute and fight the good fight even if you come back when there is more focus on single player offline *cheers*

 

Great thread.

Ultima 7 was a milestone and with better graphics and a better combat system even today it could stand its ground against modern RPGs like The Witcher 3.
What would SotA need to become more like Ultima 7?

1. Towns just with NPCs and without player housing. Player housing is a bane for the story of this game. It ruins the "personality" and atmosphere of towns as well as the whole game and it prevents great stories and quests from happening as towns with player housing cannot change.
I am missing the distinct towns of former Ultimas. Yew as a city in the trees without pointless lighthouses, castles and viking houses mixed in between. The miner city of Minoc with it's distinct look etc. This added so much to the atmosphere of the game which is missing from SotA.

2. A real NPC party. Partymembers that are more than pets and whose inventory, gear and skills we can manage.

3. NPCs that have less to say but have a much deeper personality and background. Ultima 7 managed to have NPCs with a deep personality and background with using so much less text in the dialogues.

4. NPC schedules. I know they are working on it for SotA but what we have right now is not nearly on par with Ultima 7.

5. A highly interactive world in which we can move items around, discover hidden items underneath objects etc.

6. A world that is worth exploring. In Ultima 7 there were secrets to be found, NPCs with quests, etc. In SotA most of the scenes are just there to grind. There is nothing to find, do or discover except for enemies and resources.

7. Multilayered quests with twists that can change midway through. Quests in which we discover that we were deceived, that the NPC is not who he seemed to be that there is much more to the task at hand.

8. Quests that have dire consequences. Alagner died in Ultima 7, the banes killed the population of the cities in Serpent Isles... Hopfully suche things will come with the phasing system.

9. A world that is aware of itself. Somehow in SotA I don't get the impression that the NPCs are aware of the world around them. In Ultima we had NPCs whose relatives lived in other cities and who were happy when we reported about their family. NPCs talked about other cities and what happened there etc. In SotA I get the impression that every town is in some kind of bubble, separated from the rest of the world.

10. Enemies with a purpose. Meeting enemies in Ultima was exciting as we got the impression that they really had a purpose to be in the place they were. For example they were sitting around a campfire and suddenly attacked etc. In SotA the mobs are just patrolling some routes waiting to be attacked. This gives the impression that they are nothing more than cannon fodder. They would need much more and more natural behaviour for the world to feel alive and not like a "shooting gallery" where we enter scenes just to attack patrolling and respawning enemies.

11. An overland map that is much more alive. We didn't have an overland map in Ultima 6-9 but a journey between cities and areas of interest felt exciting as there were animals roaming around, we could discover some ruins, maybe find a hidden chest or a cave or other things, meet NPCs. In SotA there need to be ambient animals roaming around on the overland map, birds flying aorund, npcs walking around, maybe some merchants travelling to another town. We need to be able to discover secrets. Maybe some pop up windows that tell us that we discovered something and we can choose if we want to explore the scene or not. Or new scenes could show up when the stars are alinged in a special way and it is night, raining... Speaking of rain, weather on the overland map would be nice.

12. Areas and dungeons should be filled with, lore, stories, secrets, and puzzles. One of the aspects I liked about Ultima 9 were the dungeons. They were exciting, we could meet some NPCs there, get a quest, discover what happened there, fight monster, solve puzzles, discover secrets.

13. Loot. Another thing that is a bane to the story of SotA is the player driven economy. I want to find great legendary items from ages past and be the only one to wield the hoe of destruction. I hope that the newly introduced artifacts will bring this element into the game.

14. Sleeping. Advancing the time by sleeping is important for a single player game, expecially if there are quests that are dependent on time. For example a crypt opening up only at night. I don't want to spend the short time I can play a game waiting for night to settle in.

Those are a few of the things SotA would need to get close to Ultima 7 and not feel so "gamey", MMO-like, "empty" and "hollow".

 

Sir Cabirus, you have always been an important voice in the community. Anyone who might question you need only look at your signature and see how deeply you know the Ultima series. And your involvement goes way beyond that...

If I could convince you to hang on, I would. You are exactly the type of person who could give excellent feedback on questing and the story line. However, I understand how difficult it is to participate in that for a variety of reasons.

Make the choice you need to make. In some sense, this is the meta-game of SotA. The choices that are hard and give us pause. I just wish there was a way we could all be talking about the in-game choices more...

 

@Sir Cabirus i really have no clue, i became aware of this game in 2013, but after TR i just don't cared about.
From time to time I read something about it and last year someone I know made a post in our forums about the final wipe and he didnt recommended SotA for the normal player, but for people who like community and RP and such.
So I tried out for the 40 bucks and was overwhelmed . Many things here I like very, very much.
One thing was the parser feeling of questing .
I buyed several things from the shop and players to support the game. I think even guys on the playermarket and playing the game, organizing events, helping people and such is supporting it.
I like the options of the selektive MP modes and I am also curious about quests. I did some and they was ok and sometimes nice, but then I was often not able to do it because you need to develop further etc... Then I let off questing and wanted to wait until it's more polished.

As I said, I have no clue about the last 4 years of development, just jumped in unprepared and without any expectations (what is maybe a great opportunity) , but I believe what you and @Lord_Darkmoon are missing is to come. Maybe not that ultimate consequence phasing technology questing , but tons of lore related quests and such.
I think this things are really just the last 20% they are talking about and will be implemented bit by bit.
I just paused for about 2 Weeks and just visited an event in this time (Drachenfelser Turney), but I plan to be online more again trying out some quests and search them (no blue glow thing for me )

I would say wait, if you don't need the money. How big will your concerns if the game in some years is what you dreamed of?

 

For real, it furthers the development big time!

 

You know, I'm part of the single player story camp - but I also see the other camp, the UO and role player fans who wants to create their own stories and background. And I think they have their own problems. Many unpopulated POTs, empty areas, too much grinding, no satisfying PVP and so on. Many people are only playing in single player online mode (quicker grinding, no shared resources). Maybe the attempt to satisfy to many different tastes simultaneously is the source of the problem. Too many compromises need to be made from both camps. And to keep these compromises as small as possible, as well as a small development team and a low budget, results in a big enlargement of development time.

I believe that many people have a great desire for a spiritual UO successor. And I fully understand this, hey, I'm NOT your foe! But lets face it, without the many single player Ultima games, without the success of these games UO would never have been developed. Ultima (the single player games) had very good reviews until Ultima 8 when EA took over. Ultima 8 had bad reviews, Ultima 9 had bad reviews, Tabula Rasa .... failed. Ultima 7 was the last game with good critics - and of course UO had also good reviews

Pillars of Eternity (former Project Eternity) was my first Kickstarter experience, the first game I ever backed. This game is a single player rpg in the spirit of Baldur's gate. The game was successfully funded in October 2012 - with nearly 4.000.000 $ and 74.000 supporters - just a half year before SotA was funded with nearly 2.000.000 $ and 22.000 supporters. Pillars of Eternity was released in March 2015 - and got very positive reviews. We are in the year 2017 now and nobody knows when SotA will be released.

I think it have been better if Port had developed a single player rpg in the spirit of Ultima 7 first. This game could have been quickly completed and released in the end of 2015. With good reviews it had established the good reputation of Richard Garriott as a brilliant game designer. This single player game could have set the stage for a new great MMO like UO based on this game. And this MMO need no compromises - it needs no single player online mode, only the native Multiplayer Online Mode. No cheating, no problems with the economy. Maybe it need even no quests, just a sandbox for the many UO lovers.

However - it's too late now for this approach.

 

I've played and replayed U7 more than any other game I own and I loved UO after renaissance was released and I could ignore Felucca. I've pretty much lost faith in SotA regarding both single player and mmo development.

In U7 it took me 5 minutes to feel part of the world and feel the urge to get deeper into the storyline. I made notes about where to go for quests, who to talk to, places to visit... SotA makes me feel absolutely nothing. I care not for the npc's, the quests are meh and the storyline so far is uninteresting.
In UO I felt as if I was playing U7 all over again but in a persistent world where I made my own adventure without quests or a storyline. There was so much to do, characters to develop, adventures to be had, friends to be made. The mmo part of SotA makes me feel yet again absolutely nothing. I don't even care about developing my own character because there are no limitations. I don't feel as if I accomplish anything by grinding mindlessly or by endlessly killing mobs to improve yet another skill.
Every release takes this game further away from what I'm looking for in an mmo.

I still have SotA installed but I disabled the steam automatic updates. I'll check out fishing because that was my biggest joy in UO but if that's a let down I'll most likely put my stuff up for sale and move on.

 

I feel for you folks who have stuck in there so long, and have yet to have your hopes realized When I started playing last week, I was kind of kicking myself for not playing more than once back in 2014. I felt very much like an outsider who had entered an exclusive club of "I was there when's." Reading about the frustrations that some of you have been experiencing for the past 3 years - and are still experiencing - is causing me to consider that coming in late might be a benefit. I am able to believe, from a fresh perspective, that some of the areas of concern have changes coming on the horizon.