Why does the Ethical Hedonism Symbol need to be on all the assets?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Poor game design, Mar 15, 2017.

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  1. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    So the choices you have made for your character make a reward "invalid"? Sorry, thats your choice.

    You are still getting a rarer version of the item, so if you want to trade it for one of the other variations it should be fairly simple to do so with other players in the game. There's an entire Marketplace subforum for you to do just that.
     
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  2. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    For someone that sees the Ethos symbol as non-intrusive, that logic may make sense. But imagine for a moment if instead of Ethos everything had the Obsidian symbol? Would you (and others) still feel the same way?

    I'm not lobbying for the Obsidian symbol to be placed on telethon rewards. I'm only making a statement that at some point we could find a symbol that a person doesn't want to see on items that they use. Why we can't be respectful of that when it involves a "reward" I don't know.

    And to your comment that we can simply trade for one without a symbol, that's not true. Like many of the rewards, the only COPPER clockwork dragon has those symbols on it. So if you want the copper variation then you're stuck with the symbols.
     
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  3. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I'd prefer ankhs or LB's serpent shield on everything, but I'd be fine with Obsidian symbols, celtic knots, or the barred infinity symbol too. Its free stuff. And if I dont like the symbol, there are other versions of it that I can probably trade someone for.

    The way I see it, being respectful is being grateful for what you have. Being indignant that you have to do use the marketplace to get what you want isn't.

    If it ever gets to the point where there is an item with a symbol that is not available without the symbol, then yes. That is not the case for any of the rewards.
     
  4. Elwyn

    Elwyn Avatar

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    What, you didn't get to hear Richard talk about it? Tsk, tsk.

    Maybe it'll get better known after release happens.

    That sounds like a good idea! Hey, wait...
     
  5. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    This is not a typical sandbox game... never was. It's attached to a story. That story has two conflicting sides... good/evil ... jedi/sith ... yin/yang ... right/wrong ... ethos/oppression. They have elected the least offensive while still giving Richard the liberties to tell his core beliefs (which greatly differ from mine as well) in this situation. They literally have pentagrams on art for previous games. If you weren't ready for religious emblazons I think you supported the wrong game. It's the spiritual successor to a seriously testing fashion of games which is designed to make people self evaluate and test what they believe is right and wrong. He's not doing this subtle or slight-of-hand either. He has been very upfront about how he thinks this is something that can overlay to most/all religious, from his point of view, and become a form of self testing that everyone can accept or reject equally. He fully knows it will offend some people and embraces that.

    If you aren't okay with that being on nearly everything I think it's time you review if you are ready to play this game or not.
     
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  6. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    To me this items with the Symbol on it represent this regarding lore.

    What doe the Clockwork Creatures stand for?
    Arent they the crafted counterpart of the once crafted creatures of the Obsidian Cabal?
    Or are they representing the Kobold Tech and connected to the Oracle somehow.
    Are they good or bad or in between?
     
  7. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Yes, I agree with everything you just said. However, there's a catch. I don't have to give money during the telethon. If that's the kind of choice they want me to make, then perhaps I'm incorrect in asking that the rewards earned from the telethon do not have symbols on them. Perhaps I'm fine playing the game, I'm just not fine supporting the game when it puts symbols that I don't agree with on the rewards. Does that sound fair?
     
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  8. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    It's curious to me why the Kobold's would create clockwork pets like baby dragons that have the Ethos symbol on them. This may make more sense as I explore the world, but based on what I know now I don't see the connection from a lore standpoint.

    I believe that Richard just likes this symbol and had no ill intent by placing it on telethon rewards. But I don't think it's directly connected to the story any more than any other symbol would be, it's just a personal preference on his part (or the team's part). But that's my point, that their personal preferences should take a back seat to the greater community that may or may not wish to have symbols on their telethon rewards for all sorts of reasons. The most neutral stance would be to have no symbols.
     
  9. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    I didn't see them ever make the telethons required. Problem solved? :)
     
  10. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Right. Problem solved. We don't want your money if you're not going to swallow our religious symbols. Got it. ;)

    Rather than go down that route, it seems a lot more reasonable to me if they just keep the symbols off of new items verses having people make a choice between funding the game and not.
     
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  11. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

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    May be a first! I completely agree with Violation!

    Ultima is a fantasy world like D&D and Lord of the Rings. RG has stated many times that a lot of what he did in Ultima was fight against the dogma of religion (more so religious people forcing their dogma on him and his video games). This was very important for those of us who grew up in the 70's and 80's with D&D and Ultima when zealots were calling them both devil worship (among with great bands like AC`DC and Ozzy) which later turned into "wrecking our children". However, as you can see by the aged SOTA population, seems like we all came out fine, in fact better.

    Look at my avatar symbol which is from the band Rush. in the 70's when it came out, people called it devil worship because it *looks* like a pentagon (which it is not, its upside down). It's symbolizm is below in my signature. Like Richard and his symbol, I have take this symbol on as my life goal. A lot of the symbology of the Rush symbol comes from freeing one self from the tyranny of communism and religion. Almost every song Rush sings has lyrix that match yet they are one of the most popular rock bands of all time loved by millions of people who are religious and just get over it because its entertainment.

    If people are this hard core about the story and symbols in SOTA then they might as well put down every major book, movie and story in the past 100 years. Bye to Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, Star Wars (especially Star Wars) etc... All stories that build their own complete worlds with their own gods and deities.

    Edit: I ran out of time, going to be late, Ill add to this later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  12. Jouten

    Jouten Avatar

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    "Look at this award I got that is given to the masses. Notice how it has a symbol I don't like on it because it messes with my RP. I want them to have a different symbol or have it removed from everyone else's reward or have them do some other extensive work to change it because my immersion is falling apart. Damn it to all if I don't get what I want, screw their vision or their property, I want them to do more work on an award by using the money from the telethon itself to spend time on that task."

    Dude...come on...

    Reward: make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements.

    ...Like a kid crying over his Christmas presents...
     
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  13. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    I'm not asking them to change past rewards, I'm asking them to stop putting symbols on new rewards.

    Please do not disrespect me by mis-characterizing what I'm doing. People have to pay money to get those rewards, it's not really a "gift" in the sense you're talking about.
     
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  14. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    Regarding hedonism, I tend to agree with Ayn Rand.
    http://www.playboy.com/articles/playboy-interview-ayn-rand
    This interview originally ran in our March 1964 issue.

    I am profoundly opposed to the philosophy of hedonism. Hedonism is the doctrine, which holds that the good is whatever gives you pleasure and, therefore, pleasure is the standard of morality. Objectivism holds that the good must be defined by a rational standard of value, that pleasure is not a first cause, but only a consequence, that only the pleasure which proceeds from a rational value judgment can be regarded as moral, that pleasure, as such, is not a guide to action nor a standard of morality. To say that pleasure should be the standard of morality simply means that whichever values you happen to have chosen, consciously or subconsciously, rationally or irrationally, are right and moral. This means that you are to be guided by chance feelings, emotions and whims, not by your mind. My philosophy is the opposite of hedonism. I hold that one cannot achieve happiness by random, arbitrary or subjective means. One can achieve happiness only on the basis of rational values. By rational values, I do not mean anything that a man may arbitrarily or blindly declare to be rational. It is the province of morality, of the science of ethics, to define for men what is a rational standard and what are the rational values to pursue.

    --------------------------

    That said, I think the rewards are great and I wouldn't mind finding a Hedonism Artifact that invokes a special glow or some other effect from all the Grand Tour and Telethon rewards.
     
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  15. Jouten

    Jouten Avatar

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    You're looking for true neutrality, I get it. But it's also their game. It's their aesthetic design decision over an item you get through a telethon, telethon's that's been happening for a few years now. Why is this brought up now all of the sudden?

    Answering your question of "Why does the Ethical Hedonism Symbol need to be on all the assets?", @Browncoat Jayson did an excellent job as the first reply and instead you jump to his copper dragon comment.
     
  16. Shanna

    Shanna Avatar

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    I, too, have been educated through this thread. thanks, OP! :)
     
  17. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    That was the first reason I heard in this thread to embrace the symbol. As a rejection of Ayn Rand. :)

    I've brought this up numerous times before. Including the last telethon where Starr said they would consider providing less LB and DS symbols since not everyone appreciates those symbols. This is a continuation of other discussions, but what prompted me to make this thread is that I noticed that the Thorn Shield (on sketchfab) has an Ethos symbol and while I'd love to have a version of that on my walls someday, having the symbol makes that impossible for my character.

    I'm also looking forward to seeing the Thorn Staff, but I'm dreading the Ethos symbol being plastered on to it, ruining what would otherwise be something cool and useful that I would enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  18. Rufus D`Asperdi

    Rufus D`Asperdi Avatar

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    Remember the furor when this came out?

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Jouten

    Jouten Avatar

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    No, quote the whole thing please.

    And just to be sure...

    You got your answer. And as you've said Starr already knows about it. We can continue this thread but it'd just be bickering. Or are you trying to find folks to rally behind your idea to get what you want sooner rather than later?
     
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  20. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    This is her response to Hedonism, without any limitations. Richard doesn't espouse that, he has talked before about Ethical Hedonism. It is "Ethical" because it put in place those rational standards of value, in that doing what gives you pleasure cannot interfere with others' pursuits of the same. It turns those arbitrary values, by making them look at a bigger picture.
     
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