Why does the Ethical Hedonism Symbol need to be on all the assets?

Spoiler

Speaking to Grannus in Valhold about his career before Novia, you can learn a lot, including that they are specifically not human.

It's actually something of an easter egg, because it's not linked off his dialog explicitly. Asking him about being a titan (keyword "titan" specifically) begins the sequence.

 

Whaaaaaaaaatt?! *the plot thickens*

Did I misread the book or....???

 

(from the book - at least my version of the manuscript, there may be some changes in the print version)

Spoiler

Grannus makes this much more explicit; they originate from another Earth, but not the Earth of the outlanders; thus they are near-human (in SoTA they are, as in the book, slightly larger than humans, for example.) He also explains why they are there and their fate - note that the royal family of Norgard is literally Grannus' offspring, whom are apparently as Novian as any.

 

Spoiler: Kazyn's Story

Yep. This is specifically where the Phoenixfyre family (my character's heritage) comes from. We come from another alternate Britannia (Not canon Ultima, but an alternate one from the broken shards of immortality). Tried to go down this same thread of thinking. It is also where my book series "History of the Multiverse" comes from in game and why I am writing those. I love this aspect of the backstory!

 

Small note here, if one has such a mind as to want to follow the IRL part of the discussion then one might want to peruse the works of one John Locke.

Where one could perhaps enjoy some moments on such topics as Tabula Rasa:
http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/locke1690book1.pdf
or how to bestow a righteous pursuit of happiness through virtue
http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/l...g-education-posthumous-works-familiar-letters

Locke was a pretty smart guy and a devout religious type as well, and if he could make arguments derivative of ethical hedonism then you might want to re-check your own logic on that topic if you consider yourself to be either of those.

 

Im late to the party, but yeah, RG games are known for cultural appropriation that is slightly twisted to give a bizzaro-world, somewhat-uncanny familiarity with real life history and culture. Classic Science Fiction was much like this, a critique against human culture. I always respected the Ultimas for this as a little kid, I was thankful to RG and crew for making me think about human culture from a 3rd party perspective when I was just 6-7 years old. Its part of the reason Ive had a deeper intellectual respect for Ultima 7 vs basically any other game ever. It wouldnt be a spiritual successor to Ultima without some of this feeling in SotA.

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos you might be less offended if you play Ultima 7 all the way through (dont know if you have by now, but in the past you stated you handn't played any Ultima games). Its probably the best example of this. Evil cults, racism and acts of genocide, manipulative religious demagogues, and true virtue and faith found amongst the most humble members of society. The avatar can more or less decide which path to walk on (though an avatar often loses friends when straying from virtue).

Hehe yeap, and if that comes into play, then I also want the pentagram for the chinese 5 elements



Want a big flag of that for my tavern, @DarkStarr, @Lum the Mad eh??? ;-) Cloak, please? ;-) Can I engrave it on my polearms for +12 Butt Kicking?

 

Interesting! Sounds like Jaan needs to pay a visit to Grannus...

Incidentally, what- if any- implications do these revelations have with respect to Guardian-like beings which are portrayed as Titans, but also as hailing from another dimension?

 

In the book it specifically said that the titans did not come from the same world as the avatars.

 

Sorry... I was using human as a broader term than to mean earthlings. Human-like beings as opposed to supernatural beings from another dimension. I can see how that could be confusing.

 

Well, philosophy is an argued set of beliefs about truth... creating a system of symbols starts to step a wee bit out of philosophy, and then placing those symbols on devotionals, which players then get blessings from visiting, is a bit too much like religion to say its not a form of game-world religion. Add to that the titan statues, which pretty much serve the same purpose as the Romans' public statues of deities.

Of course, the Ultima games not only had shrines (including one for the Codex with stone angels guarding its path), but also had temples with prayer. Cove had a Temple of Virtue, and townspeople would come in and get on their knees to pray near the sacred flame.

LB can say this is all philosophy and not religion, but that's just a little too "cute" for me

Not that there would be anything wrong with it... The Elder Scrolls games have religion in them too, and don't hide that fact. It is what it is. It shouldn't be a source of controversy imo.

 

I agree with you there- I've always held that there can never be any value on anything predicated on a falsehood. Some people seem to take this literally, though, and immediately point out that we tell stories and fiction- but the difference is that in those cases, both parties are in on the 'lie' and so it becomes a willing 'let's pretend.' I remember Pen Jillette once said he was conflicted about 'fooling the audience' with his magic tricks until James Randi pointed out that people came to the shows willingly in order to be fooled- both parties were aware that a fiction was going to be performed and nobody was trying to pass off the fiction as the truth.

I have always thought that the concept of lying to someone out of compassion was a very infantilizing thing- the implication that "poor dear, they simply can't handle the truth." There are only a very tiny amount of contexts in which something like that could be excused - say, the person is experiencing a psychotic break and any confrontation of fact will turn them violent, or are in a very frail cardiac state whereby any shocks could be fatal until they have recovered... but these are essentially emergency conditions, and the point should always be to address the truth once those conditions have passed.

I know people do it in order to be kind, but I don't think they realize that falsifying reality because they think someone can't deal with it is a terribly unkind thing to do. It's the fostering of fragility versus anti-fragility (anti-fragility being the concept that forms the cornerstone of exposure therapy.)

Although I wasn't quite aware that the Iota bisecting the lemniscate was the symbol of Ethical Hedonism- I thought the symbol for that was PHI.

Unless.... of course, if you take PHI, turn the circle into a lemniscate, then you do have that, but that wouldn't really be the official symbol.

 

I can't remember where my print copy is at the moment but I'm pretty sure you have the quote correct.

It's quite a significant revelation.

Edit - found it and was able to check, you were word for word accurate!

 

It's Richard's trademarked symbol for ethical hedonism.

 

Two thumbs up! I appreciate your taking the time to chime in and corroborate what is generally a disfavorable view around here. And by "around here" I mean this planet.

Incidentally- speaking of Randi- have you seen "An Honest Liar"? Only on Earth would you find a person dedicating their life to exposing so-called frauds, who is themselves living a grand lie, with a lover who *literally* lied about their own true identity on a game show while *also* lying about their own true identity IRL.

*priceless*

 

But... what IS truth, anyway?

 

A sober and mature view of life must accept lying. It's nice on paper to say "oh one should never lie, even 'falsifying reality' for someone's feelings"...I could think of some political ideologies that are just as naive.

Most of humanity can only wake up and look themselves in the mirror every morning because we lie to ourselves. Dishonesty is a reality of having a sentient mind.

 

Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the day, buddy!

As for me, I must be pretty "loca en la cabeza" since I am happy with what I see in the mirror in the morning. And by the way, that hasn't come without a price that I find most are unwilling to pay.

I won't say that I *never* lie... But I certainly don't lie to people in order to "spare them" from the truth.

If I lie, it is typically to save face, avoid an uncomfortable situation, feel better about myself, or because I'm too cowardly or just plain lazy to tell the truth. When I lie, it is for purely selfish purposes. And THAT'S the truth, y'all!

TL;DR If you don't wanna know what I *really* think about that dress you're wearing, don't ask.

(Yes, as you may have guessed, I have few friends. But they are AWESOME friends!)

But in all seriousness, while lying may often be expedient and sometimes (arguably) necessary... would you characterize it as "virtuous"?

 

Personally, I would not want someone to lie to me in order to spare my feelings. Nor would I do the same to someone else. For example, if I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I expect the physician to be very straight and honest with me so that I can at least plan whatever life I have left around that. Or, if a child s father was killed, I would expect the remaining parent or guardian to at least be honest with that child, rather than perpetuate a lie (ie. the father is on vacation, or something like that). I find this cruel and unnecessary, not to mention how that child would feel when in adulthood, finds out the truth.)

 

*crickets*

 

Is another word for fact.

You're welcome to speak for yourself but not everyone shares this idea. You might think.. you see they're lying to themselves.. but would you stop to consider this ideology itself is a lie?

I will happily accept what people might think if I say I strive to be honest and have no need to lie because quite honestly I don't care if someone thinks I'm immature or what have you. They probably don't want to know I think if they ask.. I will likely decline to answer, but I'm not going to lie about.