Wtb Perma death game mode

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Brass Knuckles, Mar 17, 2017.

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  1. ThurisazSheol

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    not trying to start a fight or anything, i'm pretty curious - why exactly, should permadeath players be isolated from non permadeath players?
    thing is, wouldn't the PD players have more to lose than the NPD players, and make it more exciting for the PD players?
    my thought is, let them play in the same instances, but DO NOT let the non permadeath players see anything that states they are chatting with a permadeath player.

    i'd also think one problem with this would be all the living world artifacts people own. like housing etc. maybe have a system that puts your stuff on auction for a month, to the world, so anyone can buy the stuff as if it were an estate sale.
    that would resolve any physical-goods ownership, as those things shouldn't dissappear if flagged to you, once your PD character dies, instead of flagging them as PD owned, and poof dissappear into the ether when you die too.

    the whole concept to me, is cool, having the two PD and NPD together.
     
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  2. GreyMouser Skye

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    I would suggest a permadeath dungeon, only PVE to start. The difference is the dungeon has chaos warping the ankhs so your ghost will be cast from the dungeon to resurrect outside and naked. Solo only to start as well. Again just an experiment.
    If this works well and people like it, rewards can be bumped at the end and penalties increased.
    Thoughts?
     
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  3. Curt

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    Only in off-line mode could they easily make a perma-death mode.
     
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  4. Brass Knuckles

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    Someone already said that please read the thread.

     
  5. Elnoth

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    Given the instance based architecture with matchmaking rules the game uses - it would be pretty easy to implement.

    I played a fair bit of diablo 3 hardcore with pemadeath. I can certainly see space within this game for the option - even if it is only for shorter seasonal based ladder type competitions.
     
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  6. Gix

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    Most players don't like playing in an environment when they know others have a clear advantage over them. This advantage being not having to deal with massive loss.

    "Well, " you might be thinking, "isn't it their choice to play in Perma-Death?" Yes. But the idea in a Perma-Death MMO is being surrounded by people that have the same struggle. Just deleting your character isn't enough, it's knowing that other people in your playground have to do the same.
    • Can you imagine playing and the tank in your party isn't willing to charge into the fray because HE's the only one who's playing in Perma-Death mode?
    • Can you imagine a seller losing money on a transaction because the goods he risked his character's life to get are super common due to other people not losing everything when they die?
    • Can you imagine the repercussions it has on PvP? You being the only one around risking everything on a battle when everyone else can just shrug it off as a mere "skirmish loss"?
    • Can you imagine your moral choices being different than somebody else's because they don't have to bother with the "life and death" situations the same way you do? "Do you risk your life for this NPC, or do you condemn them so that you may live?"
    Permanent-Death is super fun to play but not when you're merely making it harder on yourself.
     
  7. Brass Knuckles

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    I agree totally with this line of thinking, the just delete your character thing that people like to say misses the point absolutley.
     
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  8. Ashlynn [Pax]

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    Permadeath is really one of those core concepts you need to design the game around from the beginning. I don't think you can add it later and expect good things.
     
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  9. Brass Knuckles

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    Good point, who know mabey someday they might offer a fresh world aproach to this.
     
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  10. ThurisazSheol

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    so, theoretically speaking, not knowing if someone will or will not have to do the same, assuming they do not tell you so, wouldn't have anywhere close to the same feelings as you'd have if every other person around you had no choice but to be subject to the same rigors? i'd consider it a good compromise between the two, if this were to be added as a system overlay.



    hm... another idea:
    someone above stated that this may work in single player offline...but what about having a hybrid mode.. permadeath and nonpermadeath people can only group with like moded folks, but they can interact with chat and the likes, as if someone in the other mode is an essential NPC running around.


    from both a PD and NPD perspective, it would simply be talking to a 'living npc'



    oh, a thought - if what i just suggested were to become A Thing, how the heck would duels work? should a PD person be able to survive a duel? if so, could they duel NPD people too?
    i think duels should be allowed, as they are duels not pvp. and i think NPD folk should not be excluded from dueling PD folk, as the rules of a duel could be, in that hybrid, to first knee, not death.




    permadeath, from the standpoint of what this game already is defined as, is only an idea that would do exactly that, making it harder on yourself. remember what @Ashlynn [Pax] said above, as they made a great point that it really should be a central theme to writ ethe game around... kind of like how GW2 wrote the game around the theme of cooperative play and always helping each other and not being ABLE to steal kills or harvest nodes. gods, i wished they'd do that here.
     
  11. Gix

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    That's not it. It's KNOWING that you're in a world where others don't have the same limitations as you do. It doesn't matter if your entire party has Permanent Death players, you're still playing in a non-permanent-death world.

    Imagine it this way: it's like playing in a world where half the population do not lose health points in combat... but you (and a few others) do. Those players suddenly have access to content and resources you can't get to. PvP against them is clearly unfair.

    Imagine being one of the few GM blacksmiths in a Permanent Death world. Now imagine being a GM blacksmith in Permanent Death mode in a non-permanent death world. It has gameplay repercussions that go beyond a mere title.

    There is no compromise to be had; there's either a permanent death mode with a separate population, or there isn't. That's assuming that Portalarium would change the whole "Avatars are immortals" lore business.

    One has to understand the reasons why you insist on putting everybody in the same sandbox before we can continue this further.

    See, a duel in a game with permanent death has much more meaning. Wanting to kill someone honourably. If one wanted to spar, maybe the game should include wooden swords or something.

    Permanent death is permanent death. The more exceptions you throw into that rule, the more diluted the experience gets... the less reasons there are to play that mode.

    The whole reason is to invite the concept and consequences of dying. So having exceptions where you can't die defeats its purpose.

    All they need to do is avoid simply slap it on as some kind of "hardcore" PvP tag... because that won't work.

    As for making the game harder on yourself, that's like willingly playing a swordsman when CLEARLY the game demands that you cast magic spells to stay alive. You kind of expect the game to be balanced so that you could play a swordsman, just like you kind of expect to have the same struggles as everyone around.

    Purposely making it harder on yourself when it's clearly a strategic and economic disadvantages to the rest of the online community is not fun. You might as well play offline. That's why it needs a separate population for the mode to be worth playing in.
     
  12. Rekih

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    True :D
     
  13. GreyMouser Skye

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    But wow is it fun. Just achieved this tonight. 21 hours of gameplay with never dying (close several times). You play completely differently and it is awesome.

    FarCry Primal

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. ThurisazSheol

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    twofold, here's the first answer, next is the second answer:
    because i absolutely hate segregation, and abhor any mechanic that drives players away from interacting with each other.

    i really do not see that one happening. it isn't just a matter of 'it is lore', though. the entire concept has been around since the start of RG's career. it is the driving concept of the game. asking for it to start over from scratch is just rude, and a huge waste of time and money.

    in all honesty, i don't think it is going to happen at all...but adding it as an overlay for those who would like to have it too, WOULD be a compromise i can see them accepting if all the pieces just fall together..but that also assumes that all sides are willing to compromise. gix, you have both stated and shown that you are unwilling to compromise in this: if it were to be a thing, it would have to be whole-hog or nothing...and that mindset simply is not Agile enough.

    i do like the idea of it. the challange of it. but with the game's rulesets in its current form, it won't play out well.
     
  15. Gix

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    I'd rather it not be a thing. Trying to please everyone at once risks not pleasing anyone at all.

    As someone who constantly plays games in permanent death mode whenever the game offers it, I'm telling what I expect the feature to have and what you should expect from me if it fails to deliver. What you're offering as a "compromise" is not palatable and instead of blaming me for not compromising, maybe you should revisit your idea.

    Permanent Death cannot function as a game mode without it's own economy/population and I believe I offered plenty of explanations as to why that is the case.

    If you're going to do something, do it right or don't bother. It's a waste of time and resources otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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  16. ThurisazSheol

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    i agree. and i agree.

    there is no blame anywhere in my post, so there is no reason you should belittle what i have to say for a false perception. i am stating facts about you, gleaned from your previous posts in this very thread. you are not the reason the feature wouldn't work, the game as conceptualized by the devs and thus far created by the devs, is the reason why. the methodologies of development they are using are not old style methods, which tend towards the strict and no-compromise attitudes most developers in the past have embraced. the Agile Methodologies they use are very lenient and flexible, but needs everyone at all aspects of the development cycle, even our aspects as low-end QA testers, and customers, for it to even work in the first place. if this were to become A Thing, an Agile mindset for all would be needed, and compromises would have to be made. as much as both you and i think that may not be a great thing to do, in this fringe case.

    i offer compromises in most of my posts, because it is a perspective shift that sometimes the developers fade away from while in "dev mode" thinking about how a player would interact with the system, asset, whatever. that, plus i excel at outside-of-the-box thinking... back to the devs: so usually that perspective shift is not on purpose, but they HAVE to think of things like feature creep and the likes.. so a quick blurb like what i tend to do can get them back on track with the proper perspective to Go and Do Devvy Type Things with a more enlightened outlook on the subject at hand. - i do not have to always agree with that compromise, at all or even somewhat, for the tool to work as intended. they are not here to make me happy in all things, and i get that. :) In small ways like this, i can help, so I do.


    back to topic - hypothetically speaking, which this entire thread is all about, it could be done in many ways we've all suggested in THIS game. however, as you stated above, it wouldn't be whole-hog and probably isn't worth doing here at this time.

    maybe in a later chapter, to revitalize the game at that point?
    or maybe in a couple years it would be 'too little too late' and the permadeath craze would have lessened by then?
    at this point, i think these are what we should focus on in the thread, more than the content of how to make it work.. could it work? should it work in the first place?
    i'm still of the opinon that it could work. as to how, i leave that to the devs.
     
  17. StrangerDiamond

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    So it seems the logic that I feel is illogic has taken hold in your erudite mind. Interesting.

    So you'd rather have a world that secretly segregates by pushing a whole strata of community away with aberrant mechanics that not only displeases but insults them (both for siege perilous and perma-death styles) ?

    Instead you could have two worlds, with people moving back and forth between modes (yay lets go do some social sims), you would have 10 TIMES the population *** I don't exxagerate *** and you would have more happy players with minimal additional developpement time.
     
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  18. Cirsee

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    I am sure some might like it. Not my cup of tea. I am getting old enough that I don't want to re-create myself too often. That and I have to agree we need to finish Episode one and wow the rest of the gaming world first before adding new options.
     
  19. Brass Knuckles

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    This thread was never about do it now or we need it now. It about the idea of a pvp mode with heavy consequence for the dedicated for the sake of the argument say episode 4 - 8 ish.
     
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  20. StrangerDiamond

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    The point is lost on so many people... the devs have been camping behind a virtual firewall since they have visited UO and the T2A freeshard where they realised how many people likes ultimas and UO and that it was so strangely incompatible with their vision.

    I must admit I would have probably reacted the same way, if I had been removed from the industry for so long and lost sight of what matters. But one thing I can't let go of is that they weren't transparent about their reaction. With some perspective I find their reaction immature and even obnoxious.

    That I know I might have reacted similarly does not mean I understand the logic behind such a powerful silent segregation on the forums, it feel the inverse of transparency, almost in the mystical spectrum if you ask me.

    That is something I appreciated for Ultimas, but that I learned was a two sided sword in UO, and somehow managed to become a single sided sword (?!?) in shroud.

    Go figure... maybe some things should remain a mystery, lest we be harmed irreparably.
     
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