Open Letter to Mr. Garriott - the pay to play thing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Helix, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    For the moment it's a taxed pot row deed and a shogun 4 story row house.
    I was actually aiming for a village deed but...i am lazy ^^ i saw i could get the row deed NOW and would possibly need another 4 weeks to get the village deed hehe.
    Still, yes, i am going to continue the experiment. But in another way.
    I am going to get add on store deco for the house and will only buy it ingame and see how far i am able to get with it.
     
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  2. mass

    mass Avatar

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    I hope one thing that Port takes away from these types of discussions is the utmost importance of communicating funding plans to align backers/players expectations. I remember the discussions of those of us who were surprised at the continued fund raising after kickstarter. I remember discussions of those of us who were surprised when the shop became a thing. I think if all this had been explicitly stated on the kickstarter page as being in the works from day one, there would have been much less push back as everyone could have made the informed decision of investing their time and money into the project. Instead, we sort of got, "Surprise! It's an RMT game!"

    What I'd really like to see for episode 2 is a statement regarding minimal funding needed, target funding, and a list of all mechanisms of funding being intended for use to create that episode with a characterization on how those mechanisms might impact gameplay (clearly, the funding goal of kickstarter did not represent target funding, and did not characterize the additional mechanisms planned to further raise funds). I just think it's much harder for people to complain about things like this if they can go in 'eyes wide open'.
     
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  3. 2112Starman

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    Simple fact is that there is a small group of people with a vendetta against this game and they have 3-5 key points that they rail on about the game. Some of them (I could name names), rail on the same thing over and over and over again is a lot of different posts. They come here and troll the 5 points. One of them is of course "pay to win" and most of us know that this is simply not true. However, they know they can rail on it, get a 10 page long thread started with arguments.

    The community here who loves the game need to stop feeding trolls. In this thread, I had the second post and I quickly said it was not pay to play. Everyone else should keep it short and say the same thing "not pay to play" and not be pulled in by the people who come in trolling to keep the argument going. They are not here to engage in meaningful convo.

    So Joe new player comes to the forums and sees this thread and thinks... eww... arguments... (troll wins)

    But if they came and saw "no, this is not true" posted over and over again.. they may think... ah... great! (troll loses)
     
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  4. Autumn Willow

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    Thanks for taking our concerns seriously @2112Starman, way to build the community.

    :D
     
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  5. 2112Starman

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    Im willing to listen to anyone who is not trolling and offers constructive ideas to fix issues (and not obvious conspiracy theory or alt-facts)). Im actual offended that you take the usual "a-typical" route to someone talking about trolling, that it helps build the community. That's not what is happening, these people are bad actors period.

    There are certain topics that make sense to bring up constructively. For example, one person on the forums rails on story line non-stop... hundreds of posts. We get it... we agree.... And just about everyone agrees to certain degrees that it needs to be done. The worse part is that they do it in an extremely passive aggressive way to put forth a front that they really care... they dont. But they use it with a vendetta on the game to attack it. Quite different.

    On this topic, there really is no discussion. This game is not pay to win, its easy to shoot this one down.

    That really all I have to say, Im not going to be trolled into continuing this argument.
     
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  6. Autumn Willow

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    Sigh, read what I wrote initially. Why are you so against just seeing what and jumping straight to an accusation.

    Every constructive suggestion I gave is shot down with claims that it won't work, no money for company, why not just remove all stuff from the add on store fallacies along with accusations of falsehood, trolling, vendetta.

    Do you understand how hostile this feels?

    You shouldn't be the arbiter of what can and cannot be discussed. Leave it to the dev.
     
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  7. 2112Starman

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    Shot right to a personal attack. I told you I was not going to be trolled in farther. I am a member of this community and this community needs leaders to help guide it.

    This game is not pay to win in any way and the discussion should be closed.
     
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  8. Autumn Willow

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    Personal attack. Heh.

    I look forward to your updates. You should start a thread on this. I do hope things will improve when the game launches.
     
  9. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Will do this weekend when i got everything set up!
     
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  10. reuge

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    We are sure glad you are not moderating.
     
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  11. Drocis the Devious

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    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I went back and read through your posts in this thread and I didn't see any "constructive suggestions".

    I think you mentioned a few times that they could stop selling stuff in the add-on store. Was that what you were talking about? I'm hoping you mean something else that I've overlooked because I enjoy reading constructive suggestions and I'm sure Portalarium would like to read some. Especially if it includes ways for them to make everyone happy (like their families that rely on the bills getting paid).
     
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  12. mass

    mass Avatar

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    I don't like this term because it is nebulous. Different people think it means different things. You and @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos use a specific definition of it that you guys believe doesn't exist in this game (and that's fine).

    I think a better way to have this discussion, is to ask, 1) Can you gain advantage in this game by spending real money? and 2) If so, how significant is that advantage?

    There's some posts by the Devs (I believe Chris) where he discusses this, and his (their) perception is that the answer to 1 is 'yes' and that the answer to 2 is 'negligible'. They opine that the opportunity to buy power is very low, but the opportunity to save time by spending real money is present.

    I think it largely depends on what you come to do in this game, e.g. what are your goals? If your goal is to be a top PVPer, I think Chris' opinion is accurate. You can advance a little quicker, but ultimately time spent trumps everything else in terms of power, so that by the end of 3 months of playing, it probably doesn't make sense to spend money on leveling services or gear anymore because the gold and xp you earn from grinding a high level player at that point more than sustains those needs.

    Want to be a high level crafter? Well, in my opinion, spending real money can go a long way there. I find that for masterworking and enchanting, I always have enough xp, but never enough ingots. Buying up resources in the player market can save an enormous amount of time for leveling various types of crafting skills. So, I think spending real world money can give you a significant advantage in competing in the in game market as a crafter.

    Want to 'live in splendor' so to speak? Some would play this game with the goal of having 'the nicest estate'. Certainly, the path to this goal is much easier from the store than from playing the game.

    Want to just play through the game the way it's designed and enjoy the story? Real money does nothing to meet this goal. No advantage here.

    I think your strategy of trying to shut down 'P2W' discussions from simply repeating 'it's not here' is going to come off as disingenuous to people who define 'P2W' as 'paying real money to gain an advantage'. Because you can certainly do that. I started off with an 'adventurer' account and immediately felt the advantages of upgrading to 'ancestor' with just the increased bank space and indestructible tools.

    So rather than simply saying 'no P2W here' (as that doesn't even have a consistent definition), why not have a reasoned discussion of what advantages can be gained from injecting real world money, and where those advantages drop off. Then new players can decide for themselves whether it makes sense for them or not. Having that discussion remain pleasant wouldn't hurt either. :D
     
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  13. Burzmali

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    Not likely to happen, the Knights of the Forums are the stalwart guardians of the one true game, any challenge not matter how small or in jest must be met with all the might they can muster.:rolleyes:

    They've driven off dozens of community members and likely hundreds of players purifying the game for those that remain.
     
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  14. Drocis the Devious

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    Yes, that's true.

    This is one such quote.
    I totally agree with you here. However, you're not prevented from selling or trading in-game stuff to acquire ingots. Does paying real money speed things up? Sure it does. But this goes right back to the fact (and it's a fact) that all games that allow players to trade with one another have this same problem regardless of there being items that can be purchased for straight cash.

    So it becomes a perception game.

    You may also have felt the advantage of going to out and killing a bunch of mobs all day, allowing you to buy the same things.

    It's not that money has no value here (or in any other game) it's that the design recognizes that both time and money have value and players are allowed to exchange BOTH with equal freedom. Yes, some players dislike that and in a perfect world there would be no RMT in gaming for anyone (not just the rule followers) but we don't live in a perfect world. There's no way to accomplish that. Similarly there's no way to stop people from using multiple accounts, and so players will eventually have multiple characters. Is it ideal? No. But it's the best we can do.
     
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  15. reuge

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    I did suggest tithe.

    But autumn willow suggested skins.

    1. I would pay to change the sex, costume look of my vendor. In fact, I would pay through the nose for it.

    2. POT owner had the deepest pockets. Why not sell them customization expansion slots? Or special overland markers for pot. Currently, deco and customization for Pot is limited, have more option for them to decorate their town. Water in pot red is such a desirable option. How about animals or npc in pot? Or allow players to buy special events that happen in their pot.

    3. In game casino, with the well defined house odds. It can act as a good gold sink, and indirectly drive coto sales.

    4. Pay to create a quest line with dev. Pay to create and name an npc. Pay to create a boss mob with dev.

    5. Rg can be like warrant buffet auction a lunch or dinner with him or his crew quarterly.

    Just a few off my mind. I think I can come up with a few more if given some more time.

    @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos

    I am sure you can too with your wealth of mmo experience.
     
  16. mass

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    The advantage was that I circumvented having to do that to gain the reward. I simply think that both sides calling this "Absolutely pay to win, no point in playing" and "Absolutely no pay to win, it's all lies' are disingenuous, dead end conversations, with little informative value to new players, and does not accurately represent the state of the game.
     
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  17. Drocis the Devious

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    Do you believe what you're suggesting would result in the same amount of funding?

    We have had a lot of people on the forms specifically ask for cheaper items in the store, and specifically what we have there. I'm not saying the ideas you listed are bad, I think there are probably a few they should be doing in conjunction with the store. If these allowed us to keep the doors open and make crafters more happy...great!

    If Autumn Willow suggested furniture skins and I didn't see that, I apologize. I think that's a great idea. I hope they do that!
     
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  18. Drocis the Devious

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    Isn't that a problem with MMO's in general though. They take so much time up that players are willing to pay to avoid that time? This isn't a SOTA problem. If you had a viable solution to this problem all MMO's would switch to that. So why is it acceptable to punish SOTA over something that is an industry reality?

    Yes, we could dumb down the game, make instanced housing, no add-on store, no individuality that you could obtain (per the rules) without grinding the hell out of the game. But that excludes all kinds of people. I never played WOW or EQ because I didn't want to play a game where the focus was to be like everyone else while at the same time being behind everyone else because I didn't have enough time to complete. At least here you can have either money or time (or a mixture of both) and choose your own path.

    As you can you see from my previous comments, I'm more than capable of having a conversation involving the flaws of this game design. But if our starting point for the conversation is that the game is pay 2 win because there's an add-on store, I can't just let that go. It's a completely false statement. Are there aspects of the game that benefit players that spend tons of money? Yes absolutely, as much as any MMO out there that allows players to trade and acquire items.

    I think the idea of using skins (patterns) on more items like furniture is a no brainer and I would expect the developers to do that at some point. But the furniture itself being sold in the add-on store is not hurting anyone, it's not hurting the game, unless you're so rigid against the existence of the add-on store that you don't care about the realities of the game design.
     
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  19. Autumn Willow

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    It was @Pikegirl that suggested skins I think. I can't remember.

    From wikipedia:
    Constructive criticism aims to show that an intent or purpose of something is better served by an alternative approach. In this case, making the criticism is not necessarily deemed wrong, and its purpose is respected; rather, it is claimed that the same goal could be better achieved via a different route. Constructive criticisms are often suggestions for improvement – how things could be done better or more acceptably. They draw attention to how an identified problem could be solved, or how it could be solved better.

    I identified a problem:
    • In the sandbox game, combat isn't the sole objective that players have. There are other aspects to the game that can appeal to the players, like crafting, socializing, housing and decorating.
    • For my example, I specified social-crafting, an area that I think is currently weak and could use improvment.
    I suggested an improvement:
    • not having items that are player crafted appear in the add-on store and for the store to focus on other stuff.
    • I recognizing the need for portalarium to monetize, so port could still focus on other desirable stuff in the add on store, trees, arts, pets, emotes, deeds etc.
    And you'll see that theme in my arguments time and time again. Trying to let people know my perspective and why I was suggesting what I did.

    Just because you don't agree with the criticism doesn't mean you should call it "trolling" or dismiss/ignore it as "constructive criticism".

    I don't profess to know all the answers, I can only hope to give criticism and suggestions for the improvement for the game from the role of a player.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  20. Drocis the Devious

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    I don't call everything that I disagree with trolling. I only call trolling, trolling. There's a significant difference between the two.
     
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