Open Letter to Mr. Garriott - the pay to play thing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Helix, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. mass

    mass Avatar

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    First, I am not suggesting SOTA change; we are far beyond that point. I am only suggesting that we as a community accurately characterize what the potential impact of spending real money is on your game experience, including potential advantages it offers.

    Second, as you say, we are employing a set of options that are not ideal, but serve certain needs of the game. Just because there is no penultimate solution, doesn't mean that we stop having an opinion on the set of options employed to deal with this issue.

    I have no interest in in punishing the games reputation. I agree some are. I think the reasoned response to 'the game is P2W' is, "I'm not really sure exactly what that means for everyone; here are some ways that spending real money can affect your game experience..."

    But it's a rather subjective statement because of the ill defined term of 'pay to win'. If that person fairly applies their definition to all games the same way, then from their perspective, it is accurate. Again, I think it's better to dismantle that term and simply discuss the effect of spending real money on game experience. The problem you will have, is that if you continue to only apply your definition of that term for arguing against those who claim it is pay 2 win, then you will forever be in an unwinnable fight (on both sides) against those who simply view spending money to decrease time of advancement as P2W.

    I would say that it is not uniform, and different games attempt to limit the different types of advantages you can get with real money. So, again, here the best solution is to discuss the potential impact of spending real money, in SOTA, on gameplay experience and let individuals decide whether or not that conforms with their expectations of a satisfying game environment.

    And after that if they say, "Yep, P2W, not interested."....let them go.
     
  2. Autumn Willow

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    [QUOTE="reuge, post: 824793, member: 177513"

    1. I would pay to change the sex, costume look of my vendor. In fact, I would pay through the nose for it.

    2. POT owner had the deepest pockets. Why not sell them customization expansion slots? Or special overland markers for pot. Currently, deco and customization for Pot is limited, have more option for them to decorate their town. Water in pot red is such a desirable option. How about animals or npc in pot? Or allow players to buy special events that happen in their pot.

    3. In game casino, with the well defined house odds. It can act as a good gold sink, and indirectly drive coto sales.

    4. Pay to create a quest line with dev. Pay to create and name an npc. Pay to create a boss mob with dev.

    [/QUOTE]

    These are great ideas for alternative funding that would allow the developers to get money and support without negatively affecting the state of the game through furniture, clothes and weapon/armor skins :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  3. Nikko

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    I wonder if this same thread exists in just about all of the other MMO fantasy type games' forums out there. I'll bet it does. This is a ridiculous argument. As has been stated 100 times in just this thread already, this is not just a problem with SotA. Why does this just keep going on and on and on?
     
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  4. Burzmali

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    The best definition I've is that game game is pay 2 win if "it requires that a significant amout of money be spent above and beyond the purchase price to rank in the top echelon of players". For Shroud, it's pretty gray. Certainly ranking high in PvE content isn't significantly influenced by money spent. However, it very likely that the winners of the "best trophy room" contest being advertised every time I log in will have lots on money invested. PvP is a mixed bag, but with enough players and artifacts, I think that money will start to tip the scales eventually, if only because superior builds that require specific gear and artifact sets will arise.

    Clan of Clans is the classic example of pay 2 win, do you need to spend to win a battle? Of course not, but you'll have to fork over some fat stacks to place high on the leaderboards.
     
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  5. Nikko

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    But there isn't a thing in the game that you can't find SOMEwhere on sale for in game gold, though. So that is simply not an issue. I can go out and find every single thing out there on some vendor, go make some gold, and buy it. I certainly don't need to spend a dime of real world currency.
     
  6. mass

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    Botting, hacking, and macroing occur in all MMOs. Should we just acknowledge it an allow it all? Do all games have exactly the same rules for each of these issues? Are there some nuanced approaches that may subtly impact players enjoyment of games? I think there's room for discussion on all of these issues and we have a better chance of reaching some happy compromise by discussing the details rather than simply being 'for' or 'against'.
     
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  7. Drocis the Devious

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    Yes, I agree.

    But the counter argument that people are making is that because SOME people are buying lots of stuff and not putting the time in, that's bad. It's like if you're standing in line for 3 hours to see a show and right when you walk in all the good seats are reserved for people that paid more and didn't wait in line. Or if you wait 30 minutes after the people in first class board the airplane and they're drinking wine and talking on their phones as you slowly move to the back of the plane. It's annoying.

    However, it's equally annoying to work a full week at your job, drive 40 minutes to get home through traffic, only have 3 hours to play the game over the weekend because of family commitments, house chores and trying to be a good parent, only to log into the computer and find that some jackass that has played 17 hours a day for 6 months has all the artifacts, is level 150 and is now spawn camping you in a twitch live stream.

    So there should be a reasonable medium between the two that doesn't give too much power or convenience unevenly the more time or money you spend in the game. I personally think we're very close to that now (although the amount of time someone is grinding is still weighted very heavily towards guy with no job and no responsibilities).

    My problem with some of the people in this conversation is that they're not looking to tweak the current power curve, they're looking to destroy it. They want the add-on store gone, they want the pledge rewards gone, they want instanced housing, and they want all of it for $45 or less.
     
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  8. Nikko

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    I don't think even Blizzard, with all of their billions of dollars, and influence could ever stop botting, hacking, and macroing. Should game companies make an effort to stop it as best they can? Sure. Unfortunately, you can only slow down these types of things. I don't disagree with you. In fact, I really wish we could not buy in game gold with real money and such. The thing is, from my perspective as a 100% PVE player, I just want to get my character strong, acquire cool and helpful items, and go beat up bosses. Maybe I'll even do storyline content one day as well. I guess I am fortunate that I don't feel like any of the content in this thread impacts me and the one friend I play this game with in any way. If it does, it must be very minor.
     
  9. Burzmali

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    P2W thrives by creating time limits so that "go make some gold" isn't an option. For example, if Port announced a new hedge maze contest strting now ending in a week, they know that it isn't possible to both grind the gold needed and decorate in the time alloted. In the current case, the "trophy rooms" that will likely have millions of gp worth of decorations. No way you could grind that much gold, while hunting pristine heads and decorate in a month.
     
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  10. Nikko

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    I hear ya. I guess from my particular perspective it is unlikely that a hedge maze contest that I cannot win will ever really bother me. I get that it could bother some people, though. Again, I'm sure it all comes down to perspective on what a given player wants from the game...
     
  11. Burzmali

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    True, themed PVP and PVE content where certain artifacts or tokens are needed to access it with a limited window will likely be the breaking point.
     
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  12. Drocis the Devious

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    This is actually a very good example of why it's not P2W.

    I've never purchased good for cash.
    I've never paid anyone to level my character.
    I've never pushed a pristine head from another player.

    And it just so happens that everyone of these Pristine Heads has been collected while I was grinding....
    [​IMG]
    And this is just one chest full of bears and wolves, I have a few more chests like this with other animals. But my point is that I've already put the time into the game and if I wanted to create a huge

    And I realize that yes, someone that didn't put the time into collecting all that stuff could buy their way into the competition, however they still need to out decorate everyone else and win vs. whoever else is competing.

    Btw, yes, I have housing to store this stuff. But anyone can buy bank slots with in-game gold.
     
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  13. Burzmali

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    I don't think the heads are going to make or break this contest, I'm scrub tier and even I have dozens of head, even a chicken one now, it's the ambient decorations that will decide the winner and that is where the cash is going to add up.
     
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  14. Drocis the Devious

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    No, I don't think that's the case at all. The winners were announced and 2nd and 3rd place didn't have much of anything from the store.
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=73000#Contest
     
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  15. Burzmali

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    That's more a product of player population though, if we had 10 times as many players, we'd be seeing far more addons in the top places.

    Edit: Though I'm fairly sure that the biggest ticket items in those scenes, the house themselves, are store exclusives.
     
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  16. Autumn Willow

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    Were there people who did this? I don't recall seeing any of this.
     
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  17. Drocis the Devious

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    Nothing is store exclusive, we've been over this. You can get anything you want in this game for in-game gold.
     
  18. Drocis the Devious

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    It's a composite of people that have (and continue) to discuss this conversation globally, not in this thread alone.
     
  19. Autumn Willow

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    I agree that could be people outside of this conversation that might have bought it up before. But, to be clear, in this thread alone, are some people who have suggested what you've claimed?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  20. Helix

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    You never played the old ultimas or ultima online ? grinding sucks a lot - practically it is a waste of time - for virtual money. I dont want to kill 10.000 enemies or more for a new sword / armor set/ house or an exclusive addon product i buy from an ingame vendor. I want adventures not the same setting of enemys over and over again till i have enough money. it can work in a different way. look at the old games and you will see. If you want a game based on grinding play Diabolo III - but there is no need to crash sota with this game system. Or take a look on Eggs Ultima Online. Be more creative and save SOTA from becoming something the Ultima successor never should become. And another thing; this is hard critics i know, but it is constuctive. We show a different perspective on the game that at least should be considered. I hope that SOTA will be a huge success and that richard garriott will bring us once again a new milestone in RP gaming, but that can not be archived in building a grind game in the shroud of the old ultima games.
     
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