Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

Instant Death Jumping Puzzles + Death Penalty + No Save = Cruel Game Design

Discussion in 'Release 44 Feedback Forum' started by MoriensSeeker, Jul 30, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Reflecting back on the main quest, I'd like to say putting instant death jumping puzzles (Oracle Colossus, Rhun Ruins, briefly in Sequanna Colossus) in an online game with no ability to save/reload and a death penalty in xp and gear decay is extremely cruel game design. Especially if you have a character that will take an hour or two to recover from that xp loss.

    True to the spirit of Ultima VIII, perhaps, but not something anyone ever looks back fondly upon.
     
  2. GrayFog

    GrayFog Avatar

    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Well you could maybe counter most things with Safe Fall?
     
  3. Frederick Glasgow

    Frederick Glasgow Avatar

    Messages:
    729
    Likes Received:
    2,052
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I haven't really quested other than long ago on the Path of Love,but needless to say,if puzzle mechanics are as you describe,I will probably never finish the puzzle. But it wouldn't be the first time a game has introduced things that were hard for people with disabilities. I guess I will see when I get to that point.
     
    Moiseyev Trueden, Quenton and FrostII like this.
  4. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    The only one I went through was Oracle Colossus... and the main problem I found there was that it was easy to get set on fire by accident even if your targeting was spot on, just because the jumping would be a little wonky and start you out lower than you should have been.

    If not for this kind of arbitrariness it would have been no big deal. (And generally decay is no big deal to me, I find it funny when people describe it as punishment)
     
  5. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    In the Oracle Colossus scene there is a jumping puzzle where you fall into lava with no way out. Very reminiscent of the instant death lava in Ultima VIII. There are other areas in that scene where you may or may not live by using Douse immediately. The first area you can fall in the Sequanna Colossus scene might be survivable with high safe fall and a Ring of Cat's Grace, highly unlikely though if you are later blown off a ledge by an Air Elemental. Also, probably not in Rhun Ruins, too, where if you misaim your landing you are dead.

    EDIT: By the way, of the three, only the Rhun Ruins scene has an alternate path for players who are much better at leveling than reflex puzzles.
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  6. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    15,679
    Likes Received:
    24,293
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a jumping puzzle? LOL, I got tired of searching for a way to get to the statue and ended up doing a "jump n' swim" at the closest point. :eek:
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  7. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No, before you can even reach the lava flow there is a jumping puzzle. I was referring to the one with the levers, the platforms, and the little ledges (where you have a good chance of actually falling -- died there at least three times myself, and that was after knowing exactly what to do from QA). If you fall into the lava channel there, there is no way out and you will die. Cue xp loss and gear decay.

    You think Richard would have learned something from U8. This isn't Prince of Persia... :rolleyes: (U8 design inspiration for those who don't know what I am referring to)
     
  8. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This is going to vary from person to person. Some people can make 500k per hour in the Rise. Others struggle with 10k per hour with Hardened Skeletons in PVP zones. (You can guess which group will get the Page of Pride and which will get the Page of Humility). There's a reason we now get that 10k per day welfare xp...
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  9. Atticus Gryphonheart

    Atticus Gryphonheart Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    411
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Stupid question. Does gear decay if you are not wearing it and you die? Just wondering if I get to that puzzle if I should take everything off before attempting. I am not good at jumping puzzle and know I would fall several times.
     
  10. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    @MoriensSeeker

    No, people exaggerate. You can generally make back what you lose in fifteen minutes if you're playing in an area suitable for your level, which is what you expect if the player dies so easily. And the XP loss is capped for a 24 hour period, so you can't continually lose unlimited amounts of XP.

    But some people are min-maxing their XP gains and don't want any loss at all, and some people might not be not really playing at all but log in for a dragon fight on the weekend where they die and don't want to spend time regaining what they lost.

    Then you got people with 60 GMs spread across many skill trees and they may be to be hurt harder than the average player.
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  11. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No, but you will have to clear the Air and Sand Elementals in the area and then work quickly to solve the puzzle before they respawn -- you wouldn't want to be caught fighting them without gear if you aren't a pure mage.

    EDIT: Bringing a second set of cheap equipment to swap to might be an option if you are high enough level. No way around the xp loss, though, if you fall.
     
    Atticus Gryphonheart likes this.
  12. Atticus Gryphonheart

    Atticus Gryphonheart Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    411
    Trophy Points:
    28
    You can hotbar "naked" and switch as need be. i.e. setup a naked as secondary and tab to it...at least I would try. Just wasn't sure if was worth it.
     
    MoriensSeeker likes this.
  13. Arya Stoneheart

    Arya Stoneheart Avatar

    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    2,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would like to see some ivy added near the Ankh in the lava river so you could click on it and climb out before dying.

    For that staircase, I always held down spacebar and aimed the camera just right so I could see where I was going.

    I also used Dash to do long jumps where needed.
     
  14. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No, I am talking about my own personal experience as a (mostly) SPOnline player. Hit a wall around level 70. Fiddled around with locking skills and enchanted equipment (oh, and later food) to get past that. But ultimately ended up in a situation where around level 80 or so it took about an hour grinding Hardened Undead in PVP zones to recoup after a death. A single Elite Undead is an even fight, but there aren't many places where you find one by itself.

    Mostly just use the 10k welfare xp to build pool these days, but what does it matter? I finished the game. Will come back to complete quests as they are added, but that's it. I always hated the grind. It was too extreme from the moment they moved over to the hybrid use system a couple years back.
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  15. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    @MoriensSeeker

    I'm around lev 90 right now and don't play in any extreme zones or have any special way of playing, I always earn more XP than I might lose by dying so never even worry about it. It doesn't take an hour. The 10k is also really nothing for a lev 70 player.

    Yes, I hate grinding, too. But that's what the gameplay is right now, and that's how you die, by fighting the same monsters you grind..
     
  16. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1,236
    Trophy Points:
    93
    As far as the platforming goes... Dash is your friend in Oracle Colossus. Safe fall at even level 40 is enough to make Rhun almost completely safe. Hell I think to get to the door after I flipped the switch I pretty well free fell down to the bottom and was fine.
     
  17. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    It's one "free" death a day for someone around level 70. No need to add another hour to the grind if you accidentally fall off a ledge, or there's an unlucky respawn after a tough fight, or a PVPer ganks you out of nowhere because you were lured into a PVP zone by the temptation of actual progress.

    Also, it's 10k a day, though. That adds up. In just 10 days, you earn as much as you get for completing the entire main quest. (Which is kind of ridiculous in itself when you think about it actually. XP from quest rewards really ought to be 50x to 100x what they are now to be in-line with what a players earns from grinding...)

    Hmm... well, if that's the case:
     
    Moiseyev Trueden likes this.
  18. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    It doesn't take an hour to get 10K though !
     
  19. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    If you are following the main quest, what about the point where you are shot up in the air to get to the inaccessible part of the elven tower, though? If you miss that landing, I don't think you can possibly survive it.
     
  20. MoriensSeeker

    MoriensSeeker Avatar

    Messages:
    375
    Likes Received:
    226
    Trophy Points:
    43
    For you. Consider the point of view of someone who is trying to play this game like an RPG, though. Mostly going through quests. Not letting the grind become 10x, 100x, or more like 1000x their gameplay experience.
     
    Moiseyev Trueden, zyxe and Quenton like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.