Experience point loss has removed the incentive to adventure and explore.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by FrostII, Aug 20, 2017.

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  1. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    *** EDIT *** I've changed the title from "What will keep you playing Shroud years from now", to the current title - as this one is more appropriate and some were not reading the OP because of it.
    I have changed nothing other than the title.

    I recently saw an article titled "20 Old MMORPG's That You Can Still Play" and wondered what they had in common that kept people playing for years and years. There's so many games that have come and gone, but only a few that have lasted for years - and - since I really want Shroud to last for years and years, I asked myself (and a few friends) - what it is that sets those apart from the rest? What one aspect did they have in common that kept people playing daily - for as long as 20 years.

    Well, here's what those games have in common... Every one of them actively promotes communities where people build relationships with each other.

    Friendships, Guilds and Alliances - people that play together and enjoy the game together - appears to be the primary catalyst that keeps people playing the same game year after year after year. Look at how players in UO, Guild Wars, Everquest and WoW built their characters over many years, and how guilds and alliances were built that grew and lasted.

    Recognizing that gamer play styles include both single players and groups, Shroud has presented us with three modes of play: Single Player Online (and Offline), Friends Online and Multiplayer Online. Two of the three recognize the importance of people being with other people. I salute Port's commitment to having a great experience available to all three, and I hope we succeed in creating an environment that will be fulfilling and enjoyable for all three. But, when you boil it down to the real nuts and bolts, there's really only two types of "gamers". Those who enjoy playing alone and those who enjoy grouping with friends/alliances.

    Also along those lines, think about apps like IRC, Ventrilo, Team Speak and Discord. How did they come to be? What need did they fulfill? The demand for communication between gamers is - self explanatory. A serious majority of players enjoy the comradery that group play promotes.

    By now you're probably asking yourself why I've brought this to your attention and why I think that it's important for Portalarium to realize how Shroud - as it is now - is perceived by those of us who enjoy grouping together. From the perspective of one of the many who plays Shroud in a group - for the most fun - I'd appreciate it if you'd take the time to have a look at the spoiler (to see my thoughts on where Shroud is working against group play)

    I apologize for this wall-o-text, but believe it or not I've shortened it as much as I can, but I've a very serious point to make.

    I am a member of a good sized guild, who've - for the past 3 years - joined together most every single evening to enjoy this amazing world of Shroud. We've grown with it, been awed by it, been exasperated by it and in the end and in the grand scheme of things, I would consider us as a normal group by most any standard. We Range in Adv levels between 50 – 100 which would probably fit a bell curve quite well - pretty normal as groups go.

    On any given evening, what we used (yes, I said used) to enjoy the most - was adventuring out in the hinterlands to see how well we do against the mobs that are the most challenging for us, and a chance at one of the decent drops. We don't have anyone who is capable of soloing the big bosses, so that's a discussion for another time. What we've enjoyed most is the CHALLENGE that the tougher bosses offer. We loved to press the envelope and develop our group fighting as we grow stronger and stronger together. And we love exploring.

    Personally, I'm an "older" guy - (way older than @Lord British @dallas @DarkStarr for sure - even Lords should respect their elders) and mostly retired. I admit to having played UO daily (5 accounts) for 18 years before a friend (from UO) convinced me to give SotA a try. I've been hooked ever since. And since I've had the most time to grind skills - I've become the primary tank in our group fights.

    Now for the bad part - the point that we have reached where our adventuring and exploring in tough places and with tough bosses has all but come to an end.

    With our system as it stands, we are seeing an increasing number of our members who are starting to "bow out" of our nightly adventures. Our excited, happy, involved group has become noticeably smaller and exponentially less excited and happy in our daily excursions. It all has to do with making up (re-doing the xp grind from the day before) because - in our quests to defeat difficult enemy's - our current system of losing experience points from our xp pool (or skills if the pool is insufficient) upon death has shown to be so incredibly counterproductive as to be ludicrous. And before you roll your eyes and cover your ears around this contentious subject, please allow me to explain.

    As I stated earlier, I have more time to play than most people and with 28 Combat class GM's grinded since persistence a year ago, and I currently lose 140,000 xp's on first death, given 24hrs since the last one. Two of my guild-mates who are much more "normal" in their GM's/AdvLvls presently lose between 40k and 45k on that first death.

    Here's what that death penalty's say to us: "You've reached the point in raising skills now where - if you die tonight - you are going to have to spend an hour or more making those points up tomorrow before you start, and if you choose to continue to raise skills then your penalty will increase proportionately - forever ". So, stop gaining skills - you've gone too far. If you continue to treat Shroud as one adventure after another, then you will forever have to spend more and more time making up for dying.

    IE - DON'T DIE.

    Don't explore.
    Don't take chances.
    Don't adventure.

    For a game that is being built for exploring and adventuring, being told not to die is simply beyond ludicrous. Most of our adventuring fun includes deaths - otherwise it would be the same boring safe places forever, and that concept (stay in easy, boring scenes) is what is completely unsustainable. No one that I know came here for boredom, nor will they remain here if this continues. We are explorers and adventurers, that's what we love and that's what has kept the bulk of us here in Shroud.

    Now, there will be people who will no doubt be posting in this thread that will say things like: "Gee, you can make that up in 15mins or an hour... it's no big deal. You should see how much xp I lose from my pool when I die." I know a few people who routinely farm the dragon in Southern Grundvald and almost never die, who are capable of soloing most anything in the game whenever they choose. Why? They do it because they can get huge amounts of xp and they can also make fortunes from the rare drops (that are truly not rares for them, but are for the vast majority of us). These people don't die often, because they are powerful enough to avoid it - hence the death penalty has little effect on them.

    But, for us normal people who have the most fun exploring and adventuring - this death penalty is a killer. Having to spend a good part of what little time we have every evening just making up for dying during the past nights adventure has taken all of our fun away from us, and there is the distinct possibility that it will drive us from Shroud. There is not one among us who doesn't simply hate this loss of time, time that will have to be spent killing mobs that won't kill us (you know, the ever so boring grind) just to be back to where they were before they died. Our time is important to us and we feel seriously pissed when we are forced to redo an hour of raising xps.

    When it comes to WHO the death penalty hurts the most, it comes down to this:

    Solo:
    Solo players have no need to take chances. They are not farming bosses because they are solo, and are content to go about their solo business doing other things. These people are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination, and are not the ones who will make or break - much less sustain -this game.

    PvP:
    PvP players don't really care about killing bosses much, what they enjoy is fighting each other. And death by PvP doesn't take xp from your pool, so they don't need to worry about that aspect while doing what they enjoy the most.

    The very casual player:
    Players who have not reached sufficient total skill levels to be effected sufficiently to notice it (but who most certainly WILL in their not too distant future).

    Group Players:
    Group players - Friendships, guilds, alliances- these are the people who fight and quite often die to the harder mobs. These are the people, like my guild, who - until this death penalty - got together every night to go on some new adventure, to explore the world of Shroud. But now - we don't. Every night when we get together someone finally says "What are we going to do tonight ?" This used to be a fun question and it used to be met with a variety of suggestions, and generally included challenging the difficult. We used to have fun doing odd things like seeing who could jump from a castle roof and hit closest to a target on the ground... no more. (I have movies) We used to have fun trying to climb random cliff faces to the top... no more. Nowadays, "crickets"..... Our adventuring - our spirit of exploration - has been replaced by a general sadness and feeling of sheer disbelief that Port has implemented this ludicrous, adventure killing death penalty.

    So, what can Port do that will encourage - not discourage - group play? How can this cap system be designed so it does not discourage groups from exploring the toughest scenes and fighting the most challenging MOBs? Is there a way to still control skills that is a positive to group play instead of a negative? We know you don't want to place a cap on the skills, but why not? I believe we have been told a 'reason' why, but I would like to hear it again, please. I'd love to hear what others think and what other suggestions they may have. Please let's keep this discussion civil and productive so this thread does not devolve into shouts, accusations and personal attacks - i.e. locked.

    Oh, and thanks for reading this 'till the end...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  2. Gamician

    Gamician Avatar

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    Totally agree with what you have to say @FrostII, I typically only have about 3 hours at the most to play every night. Based on what I lose now after one death it takes approximately one hour for me to make up what I lost in a safe enough area that gives me a fairly good chance of not dying again. The most important thing in this game is "My Time". Like you FrostII, I am an old timer with Sons a Daughter and 5 Grandchildren. Started close to the beginning of UO and switched over thinking that those who developed the old UO would know all the things that went wrong with UO, Apparently I was wrong. When you get older and you will, you begin to realize that time is finite. Somewhere along the way you start to appreciate every minute you have left. Spending that time doing something over an over again does not make me a happy camper. I have better uses for my time then wasting it.

    We used to adventure and explore in a group almost every night. Now people do not want to die because they do not want to lose Experience Points, Others have to take the time to make up the Experience Points they lost form the night before. Some could only play 2 hours per night (like my Son) which means that they spend 1 hour redoing what Experience Points they lost from the night before and only having an hour left to do anything. So in a his case it is not even worth logging on until he can play for a longer period of time. Basically our Groups/Parties of between 8 - 14 people, sometimes requiring two Parties in Multi-Player, has dwindled to 5 or 6 players at the most. The major Bosses are almost out of question for us now.

    Those with less than 40 have no Experience Loss. Those with lets say 50 or more GM's that were probably over 100 GM's before Release 43, were allowed to recover 100% of their Expereince Points to reduce their GM's below 120 or more. I would guess their Experience Point Pools are close to or over 100,000,000. Thats right million. In addition they can do most Bosses Solo or with a group of two. They die very little and if they do, they can make what they have lost back in close to 20 minutes. So basically they do not suffer any kind of Decay.

    Those of us however who have between lets say 70 and 100 Adventurer Levels, Maybe 5 - 25 Adventuring Skills GM"s are the ones who get all the losses and all the Punishment. We are the ones who typically die more than once when doing Major Bosses in a Group. We are the ones who die several times when exploring all the different exciting areas in a Group. As you stated FrostII, We are basically being told to not go out on Group Hunts or Adventures. Just stay in your little area, do not die, only do MOB's that are at least one or two levels below your ability so you do not die. Do not take chances, do not explore. Why someone would develop a system to squeeze the Fun and Life out of a game has me scratching my head.
     
  3. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Aye, @Gamician . It seems pretty obvious that no one at Portalarium has yet to recognize what this one single feature has done to us, and hope that @Lord British @dallas @DarkStarr will read what we have written and give us a response.
    I'm crossin' my fingers..........
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  4. Gix

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    I'd like to add that it isn't whenever or not it's "easy" to compensate for the issues that arise (like being able to recuperate XP loss after a death) but that the systems are contradicting with each other on a fundamental basis.

    I've died plenty of times as a low adventure level (1-40). That's when you get sent to your death by quest(s), or being overwhelmed by green mobs (because everything aggos on you)... or die just because you're trying to find other areas to explore and you hope that, maybe, a tier 2-3 might not be that hard...

    I'm adventure 50 now and I've noticed a drastic improvement on my sustainability. I'd argue that it isn't fun for anyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  5. Gamician

    Gamician Avatar

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    In the last Telethon it was stated by Chris that "Decay" was the most disliked and complained about part of the game. I'd differ in that first there is no such thing as "Decay for the majority
    of players. There is only Experience Point Loss and wasted time making it up 0ver and over and over again. Second I would say that it is not "dislike" or "complaint" but outright "HATRED" of
    Experience Point Loss. I don't know about any one else but when a I start Hating parts of a game it shortens the amount of time I can maintain interest in the game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  6. Tazar

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    This *feature* has also halted a lot of group activities that were simply goofy, but fun.

    We used to have contests amongst the guild to see who could climb a random cliff-face by jumping (usually dying at the bottom). We used to see who could jump from the turret of an LOTM Keep and come closest to hitting a target on the ground. We used to climb trees by getting into them from a house or castle-wall piece.

    No More - what was fun is now penalized. Fun should not be penalized.
     
  7. Lockey2

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    Well, having hit the 50k point loss and I am a cloth wearing healer. I am lucky if I can get from point A to point B without a death. I only have 2 GM's that are under the Adventure Tab and one is the taming skill. I often spend my evenings healings. I can now pull agro just from healing someone. Which can make keeping myself alive much less the tank a real challenge. So at times I feel like I take one step forward only to end up taking 2-5 steps back. Don't expect an evenings adventure to be a cake walk but this is becoming more and more discouraging. Especially as the group number participation dwindles so to does our options on where to adventure too dwindle.
     
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  8. Gamician

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    Oh how i remember those days! Jumping off Roofs trying to land in the @dallas Hot Tub. I remember trying to jump off the highest cliffs in Spite, trying to land in the Sea.

    One of the most famous or infamous depending on your point of view was the Character "Leroy Jenkins". He would do just about anything with reckless abandon. Charge into any situation without the slightest fear of dying. I have to think that a true MMORPG adventurer and explorers like him would have nothing to do with SOTA. Really Sad.

    You would think that by now someone would have developed a set of rules for MMORPG development. For Example .

    Rule 1: A Game must be and continue to always be FUN.

    Rule 2: If at any time you think about putting in a rule that goes against Rule 1: Refer to Rule 1

    Rule 3: If all else fails and you must remove something Fun from the Game, then Refer to Rule 1:

    Rule 4: If you make a change that takes away anything Fun from the Players. Don't

    Rule 5: If you must make a change that takes anything Fun away from the Players, refer to Rule 4:

    Rule 6: If it becomes absolutely necessary to remove anything Fun from the Game then give the Players something that is twice the FUN of that which is being removed. Else Refer back Rule 4:
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  9. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Thanks for Rule 4, @Gamician it's my favorite. ;)
     
  10. Jens_T

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    Short answer - I don't know. Currently my "little" playtime is mostly bug testing and some grinding to be able to make it through Malice on the love quest line. I have limited time and enjoy exploring & little quests / stories best.
    MoB fighting + socializing with RL friends would be a possibility but currently all of my friends (all KSers btw) left for other games. So my hope is that SotA will have more story content and be attractive enough on the combat MMO side to attract those of my friends who left.
    IMO there's a big story opportunity in the lore, it "just" lacks mechanics and resources to realize it.
     
  11. Tetsu Nevara

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    The most disliked part of the Game and they still keep it. Told it so many times that it brings more harm then good.
    A Game should be fun and enjoy the time with friends or other people. Even if they say, every game has some sort of death penalty, since i left Shroud and play other Games again, i cant say that any of this games have more then "spawn and walk the whole way back" or a lose of gear durability, and i am thankfull for that. SotA turned slowly in a single player game, no benefits for group play and no systems that supports it. This will give them a hard time. They should bring in the alliance, chat groups, remove decay and more xp bonus for party to make multiplayer interesting again.
     
  12. MrBlight

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    ..i currently play utopia with more people than are still playing Sota with me originally.. and i brought in something like 40+ people.

    Utopias a browser game thats been going since 1997? 1999?

    So...
    Yea. Thats too loaded of a question about sota for me tonight lol
     
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  13. Dreadnought

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    In short why UO lasted that long:
    Gameplay for all types of players
    A real criminal flagging system with consequences
    Thieving in towns creating risk at all times
    A real player ran economy, instead of everyone doing everything on one character
    PvP balance that took talent, talent shown fighting outnumbered fights
    Openworld pvp creating risk at any point
    Easy travel to meet with friends when getting ganked or ganking
    Pvp system that had viable counters for everything

    The issue here is what's left of the player base giving input, which is role players, house decorators, and single player story line followers. The different modes are just creating problems tbh. The people that are getting extremely overlooked is the crowd that brings the risk factor to the game, which is much needed to add entertainment value. Even in your topic you have one line about pvprs, talking about how they don't lose exp. I can clearly see your not a pvpr, I am and purely play for blood and loot obtained from killing players so I am biased in that mentality.

    As far as I'm concerned UO emulators pre trammel are better than this current game, sadly. Now they can change that but need to rework soooo many mechanics. This game in just a few years will literally only have blue/role players playing and the left over fan base hoping for a continued UO/Ultima series. I really don't see a player base that even exists on live UO servers. At the start, sure... But will drop off extremely fast after people see systems put in place or the lack of I should say. (I have several posts about this I won't get into it here) I know this isnt what you want to hear but it's just my honest opinion.

    Personally I'll be playing UO emulators, mortal online and some EQ pvp emulators over this current game checking back in to see if portal staff has woke up, waiting on pantheon and star citizen. I'll be hoping for change of SotA because of the potential of this team behind the game. Sadly I just don't see it going in the right direction (more hardcore pvp, player ran economy, a real criminal system, open world, real purpose and risk). :(
     
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  14. SmokerKGB

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    Sorry I don't get your logic, but IMO, if you "know" what the soft cap is, what would the difference be when having a hard cap?

    The only difference I can see IS; you can't do anything about a hard cap, accept "stop" gaining when you reach it... The game forces you to stop, and there's nothing you can do about it, but accept it... Most just complain about the hard cap, and how it should be higher and not so restrictive, yada, yada... I went through it in UO when they raised the cap to 120 from 100, but didn't increase the 700 total for skills... Everyone screamed bloody murder...

    So if you know the "soft" cap allows 12 GMs, why do you continue gaining? This only depletes you pool, not leaving you any "cushion" room to allow for even 1 death, let alone multiple deaths... It makes better sense to turn OFF all your skills (specializing in the 12) and letting your pool build up to the millions, so that you can die a few times before depleting the pool...

    Sounds to me like group play is addicting, and no one wants to be a stick in the mud... They all want to stay up with the Joneses, and be as tough as anyone else...
     
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  15. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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  16. Lars vonDrachental

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    But in the Telethon they also said that decay is their way of not having hard caps and that decay is a possibility for every avatar to level as much or less skills as someone likes/is able to maintain. I’m not sure how the response would be if they would make a change from decay to fixed caps as these seems to be the provided options…I would guess the currently most active avatars would rage as they would most likely lose hundreds of skillpoints. :confused:

    Well there is already a problem…what is FUN?
    For some is it fun to fight nearly undefeatable enemies in groups while for others it is fun to solo-kill everything with little effort.
    For some it is fun to be a master in a crafting discipline (e.g. sword crafting) while they have to buy other stuff from other masters (e.g. bow crafting)...for others it would be fun if they could craft everything by themselves.
    For some it is fun to level their avatar over the years while for others it is fun to reach as fast as possible the max level to a full grown avatar and start end content.
    Even the example with jumping off roof trying to land in a hot tube sound funny but I’m quite sure there are some avatars that would feel disturbed (no fun) by looking at such behavior.
    I’m quite sure there is always something that is fun for you but isn’t fun for someone else…of course the fun part should always be the biggest part (at least >51%) for yourself but not everything can be fun for everyone in a game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  17. Tetsu Nevara

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    The difference is that everyone has a other "soft cap" based on how many time they have and the game does not force you to stop. If you have enough time you can level up without limits. The idea of the decay was to stop it, but it does not.
    Didnt people cry because they have no GMs and other people have 100? What has changed sinse decay was set? People still have 100+ GMs, nothing has changed but many player notice a decrease in group play.
    Why is there no decay for pvp or crafting yet? Why do crafter with 40 crafting GMs doesnt get the soft cap?
     
  18. Weins201

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    This is the Key, ;)and very slowly Enjoy is slipping away:(.

    Play UO go out explore - fish have a chance at a SoS this is one very simple and basic concept. Sure you then had to fish it up. but not to hard or overly complicated.

    SotA , you HAVE to Grind to maintain.:confused: Rewards for just playing are few :eek:, farther between,:( and actually cause 10 x more work to actually make the one reward item viable :mad:i.e. Get a recipe for a piece of Bone armor:), BTW getting the recipe is now something that is nearly impossible, but YEAH you got the recipe,:cool: (( now you could make it Copper Bone but need a different Harder to get recipe)). Now need to gather 4 ???? special :(parts and some in quantity to even make the item. Lastly the item made is BASIC:rolleyes:, You can go out and gather even MORE resources and then :confused: risk breaking it to make it even better:mad:, also add the fact that you could get a + that does not fit :oops: or work with the piece or other:p properties.

    To gather these parts you have to kill high end critters:cool: to do this you need to be fairly powerful or in a group,;) but if you die you have to go out and mindlessly "play" again to just maintain your skill level so you can keep gathering?:(

    Does that make ANY senseo_O to a game that people want to play for many years to come:rolleyes:?

    Nope,:confused: actually is plain outright discouraging:cool: - great for a month or two then:) (for a power gamer) possibly 6 months to a normal player. ???????

    Take a count of sad / angry:confused: faces to smiling / happy ones:rolleyes:. ((Many more unhappy ones))

    That is how the game as a whole is being viewed by more than a few players.o_O
     
  19. hammadowna

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    The game is perfectly fine as is and there is a absolute METRIC TON of stuff to do.
     
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  20. Timmy Vortex

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    Instead of having fun as a group fighting the daemon; last time people left cause they were loosing too much xp according to them. What can i say? The game is super ******** in just about anything all of a sudden it's "ololol xp loss kek" "hardcore yo". So some people don't even join anymore cause they have to do more grind to stay up to speed :p

    Now if the solo PvE was super fun times that wouldn't be a big deal, but right now it isn't either.
     
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