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Unintended Consequences

Discussion in 'Release 47 Feedback Forum' started by Soryu, Oct 29, 2017.

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  1. Soryu

    Soryu Avatar

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    The Fall

    Once upon a time The Fall was a great place for characters to gain experience. It is a PVP zone so it has an additional element of risk for the additional experience reward. In addition, The Fall is a very unique zone. The developers clearly invested significant time and thought into a zone with multiple levels of walkways, elevators, moving platforms and rooms. It is not a zone easily explored for low level adventurers. In fact, it can be extremely deadly for even seasoned players on their early visits. I would suggest everyone who ever first stepped into the zone died multiple times. Developers deserve credit for a truly unique zone. Bravo to the developers.

    However, the real key to the experience was the rapid respawn times of high level mobs. Players could group and kill the mobs and not be forced to wait an unreasonable amount of time to repeat. As the first adventurers to visit the zone learned, at higher levels a player could kill some of these mobs solo. Trial and error resulted in tactics to engage mobs one on one rather than multiple mobs on one player which is deadly except for only very high levels. While the experience was great, the drop rate of the mob was like all the game next to nothing. The rapid kill rate was a bonus to an uncommon unique skull, recipe or piece of non-stat gear. Very rarely there may be an artifact drop and I do mean rare.

    Experience coupled with nearly non-stop action was the addiction for the zone. The zone attracted the hard core and extremely high level players in the game. The zone was rarely if ever unoccupied by adventurers. If you were a player of high enough level to successfully solo in the zone, it was only a matter of time before a truly elite player decided he wanted more experience. The elite player would summarily kill you and take over the experience.

    Then something truly unique occurred which Game Developers hope to achieve but do so rarely. All experience games are a grind of one kind or another. Gamers by nature are competitive and want to be better players, have better gear and access to more unique items or loot. Therefore, they are sometimes willing to put up with mindless repetition when the reward of experience or of gear is worth the effort to them individually. Game Developers in general lack the money necessary, the time or the imagination to create new content rapidly enough to service the player’s advancement. However, in The Fall something exciting and unique happened, the players created their own content.

    The Fall attracted those who wanted experience to enrichen their avatar. It also attracted the PVP player who wanted to engage other players making the zone dangerous. However, the experience gain made the risk worthwhile. Soon players who could solo the room grouped with other players for company and sometimes the safety of numbers. These groups crossed guild alignments. At first it may only have been a group of two sharing experience, but then one of the two knew another and it became a group of three. With time, the friends list may contain 20 or 30 regular high level players in The Fall. The number of players in the zone soon attracted pick pockets and griefers. Games of cat and mouse developed where pick pockets hunted players and players hunted pick pockets. The zone also drew honorable PVP players who often engaged one another in solo player versus player duels. Players also became more social with one another. When someone on the friends list was in The Fall, you could ask to be invited to the group or just chat about what was happening in the zone. The rapid pace of the zone, the uniqueness of the zone and the player content in the zone made it a special place for all. One would think what the development team achieved with The Fall is the holy grail of game development. Alas it must not be.

    In Release 47 the Development Team destroyed The Fall. The consensus opinion would have to be players were gaining experience too fast. It certainly was not the loot. The ugly term is players were “farming” experience. Duh, what do players do in these games other than “farm” resources or materials? Oh, they really meant the experience was “too” fast so we have to fix it. Well, they fixed it okay. While it is still possible to gain experience, the zone is now dying. Because the zone is unique, it is also tedious. In order to move around it is necessary to wait on elevators or moving platforms. Respawn times now are so lengthy and action so “slow” whereas before it was rapid, that the zone becomes less desirable. And it is still PVP and you can easily lose more gold than you can gain if ganked.

    Games certainly need to have balance. And gaining experience also requires balance. However, The Fall was not an easy zone nor was it one without substantial risk to the player. Sometimes the nerf hammer actually destroys what the developer intended to create. With all the effort put into the creation of The Fall, it is sad it will now be experience by so many fewer players.

    Maybe in Release 48 the developers can work on improving mining. Maybe changing the re-spawn rate of resource nodes to 10 minutes will reduce the amount of ore in the game. After all gathering ore is also "farming" which seems to be a dirty word.

    I realize the demise of The Fall is only my opinion and as such, not really worth too much. However, I have made a few casual friends so it was worthwhile as The Fall existed prior to Developer Improvement.

    Soryu
     
  2. Nomalice

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    Well said. But then, what do players know unless they are in the elite cadre who have "farmed" relationships with the developers for advance information and access to the developers ears to change things to fit their opinions of what the game should be. It will not be long before I park this game and find something that is actually fun to play if it continues in the current direction. You have beautiful graphical zones that are dead because they do not satisfy the players desire for reasonable reward for risk and, most of all, time. Today's players are not those of twenty years ago and I've been both.
     
  3. Vallo Frostbane

    Vallo Frostbane Avatar

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    Never liked the fall as it reduced PvP into a form of deathmatch arena... Not my cup of tea and I don't cry a tear after it.
    @Chris always said it was designed to test new mechanics. It is a very old map afaik that Chris designed on the side - so my hope always was it was a test, but not the height of SotA sandbox design.

    I'd also say that most other PVP zones need more love than the Fall, which is still good compared to Shardfalls e.g.

    Give us a decent Karma/Virtue/Faction based PVP reason, and we get finally some real conflict into the sandbox.
     
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  4. Gix

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    You essentially highlighted the fundamental flaw of nearly every sandbox game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  5. Soryu

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    You essentially highlighted the fundamental flaw of nearly every sandbox game.[/QUOTE]

    And perhaps you are correct. Designers and technology are not yet able to deliver truly dynamic and unpredictable content with continual replay. Massive Online games were once ground breaking. However, now everyone creates the same game in different venues. Unique design costs likely exceed potential future revenue projections. Game worlds become dependent upon the ability to copy created zone code and then alter the code slightly to deliver marginally different content due to budgetary restraints. Therefore, zones become repetitive with mobs which often are not all that different but always behave the same way in predictable locations. Once you have fully explored the zone, there is little reason to go back except to farm wanted items or resources. Furthermore, introducing something really new is financially dangerous if not well received by the players. And finally, designers need to satisfy a large base of players who all have different play styles.

    And brings it full circle to the original posters point. Whether for good reason or not, the designers destroyed a popular and interesting zone. It was a destination location and brought players together which is a fundamental goal of the game. And for those did not like the zone for whatever reason, it was no harm no foul because they did not go anyway. For the designers efforts, they now have a PVP zone which is not well populated which is the opposite of their goal. Does that really sound like a good well thought out decision?

    Guess I do not have that quote thing figured out :) Sorry, I was spending too much time in The Fall, but I will now have more time to work on it :)

    Soryu
     
  6. Gix

    Gix Avatar

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    If XP gains was what made the zone interesting, was it really interesting in the first place? Maybe if the devs came up with a better reason to be there, people would actually be motivated to go without some XP-carrot. Me? I'm not touching PvP until PvP is completely revised.

    I don't think the devs are against the idea that players can make a particular place "their own" but they would be if all of that is merely due to a balance issue on mob density, xp gain, resource accessibility, etc.

    If we spend the same amount of time adventuring in different zones and you come out with significantly more XP than I, that's a problem. The harm, here, is strong-arming players to go where they might not want to be in the first place.

    I mean, if the people are no longer there after the changes, doesn't it say a lot on its own?
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  7. Soryu

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    I am a little confused. How would "you" make zones "interesting"?

    You could put in puzzles, but once solved the zone is not very good for continued play.
    You could make the zone beautiful, that would be nice for a once or twice visit.
    You could make a zone challenging, but with a game with a death penalty it better balance the risk reward.
    You could make it challenging but reward with sufficient experience. AKA, the OLD FALL.

    PVE Players go to zones where their time is rewarded with experience, resources or loot. Sure we can talk about exploring and exploring is fun and rewarding until the zone is "explored". No game I have played has endless zones and how many zones are basically the same with minor variations? One has spiders and the other has wolves. And as your character improves why would you want to go to two skull zones? If zones are equal in experience reward, players will go to the easiest zone to navigate to maximize their experience. They are not going to go to a place like The Fall where they have to wait on the elevator, wait on the moving ramps and wait on long delayed spawns to have to do it all over again. Everyone also falls and dies from time to time there which is probably why it is named The Fall.

    And I also think if you spend more time adventuring in less challenging zones which are not PVP and not as time consuming or dangerous to navigate as The Fall and come out with the same same experience, then THAT is a problem. It is a two way street.

    Soryu
     
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  8. Gix

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    You assume that I want a particular zone to be indefinitely fun. I do not.

    I want each zone to have their own unique quests, challenges (raid boss, dungeon, puzzles, etc) and stories. And then, when I get my fill, I want to move on to the next zone. Or dabble in a few zones at a time.

    If it's got a resource I might want, that's enough of a reason to come back to it but other zones should provide the same amount and accessibility of resources. It is the only way for it to be MY CHOICE as opposed to feeling like I have to go somewhere in order to get the best results.

    The only exception to that rule is that zones should provide different quantities based on their regional economy.

    So all zones should reward lots and lots of XP and resources so that players would be motivated to go to those zones... which, if all zones were like that, would mean that every player would be scattered... Wouldn't that, you know, end up being the same as we have now?

    Or are you really suggesting that a few (or a single one) zone(s) should be significantly more rewarding than the rest to focus the population in those particular zones?

    Define "less challenging"? Who decides what is and isn't challenging? The devs? Yeah, they assign skull ratings to each zone so lets go by their rules:
    If three zones are 5 skull, two are PvP and one of those two yields significantly more XP and resources than the rest, there's a problem. Sure, the two PvP zones should probably yield slightly more XP due to the asinine PvP bonus but one shouldn't just be outright "better" than the others... which also includes the PvE zone.

    If I spend the same amount of time in a 3 skull as I would in a 5 skull and I get the same if not more XP and resources, then yeah, there's a problem.

    That's the whole reason why zones are being balanced.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  9. Jezebel Caerndow

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    Its the only place to get the pvp artifacts, its has a good boss run route in it, its still a good zone.
     
  10. Soryu

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    I will attempt to explain by example. Ultimately, the actual players decide which is more challenging. And challenging is also a moving target based upon character level, skill set and gear. Challenging today may not be challenging 15 adventure levels later.

    Currently, the majority of zones in the game are two dimensional. Some are a series of two dimensional levels where the player takes a ramp or stairway to next level. Pull up you SOTA map of the zone and you basically see a circle with 4 cardinal entrances. Working your way around the map you encounter mobs or various kinds. The differentiation of the zones is basically different mobs, resources, levels or terrain features. It can be relatively easy for the player on his first visit to slowly work his way around the and retreat to an exit if necessary.

    Only as way of example, The Fall is significantly different. It is what I would call a 3 dimensional zone. Orientation in the zone for the first visit is difficult. Walkways traverse the zone at multiple levels in multiple directions and all look the same except under careful study. Some walkways have distinguishing characteristics. You can jump from one level to another to go down, but it takes practice. If you miss the jump you are likely to die. With practice again, you can miss the jump but land in water at bottom and survive. Depending upon you level you may die in the bottom as you are attacked by mobs while you swim. To exit at the top, you must take the elevator and figure out which walkway connects to the exit. The elevator is 3 stories and you cannot reach the top exit without getting off at a walkway and waiting for the elevator to come back down so you can then jump on the top level of the elevator. The walkways are patrolled by archers and mages. They shoot at you while you are on the elevator or the walkway. You may also encounter pick pockets or PVP players who attack on sight. Gust is a favorite to blow you off the walkway. In addition to the vertical elevator, there are also horizontal elevators which must be used to access some rooms. They are also jumps which take a little practice fall to death or water. And even when someone is practiced at moving around the Fall, it is still much more timely than say using sprint and silent movement in a conventional zone.

    I know there are other challenging and non standard zones in the game. I know there are many with other unique attributes. Content in zones is what makes them interesting. There is just as much chance of the player killing himself by errant movement in the Fall as there is from a mob killing him. Of course The Fall should reward more experience or items of value than Less Challenging zones based upon risk, reward and time. And that is my definition of more or less challenging zones. I also think the zone ratings are based solely upon the mob levels and not the zone difficulty on the whole. Therefore, not all 5 skull zones are equal as you suggest. Although that is only an opinion.

    The additional experience in The Fall was not because it was PVP. And as I understand it, there are other zones with similar mob spawns and similar experience gains which are not PVP.

    Nevertheless, this is the Feedback Forum for players to tell the designers what they think and I have done my job. I think they understand exactly what I think if they even read the posts from unknowns. I suspect some of the replies are from players who have never even been to The Fall. It would be more meaningful to them if they would visit and explore a more challenging zone.

    Soryu
     
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  11. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    Because of this point we really need great story elements in each scene ...
     
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