Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

Afraid that the combat system might get ditched

Discussion in 'Release 9 Feedback' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Aug 25, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

    Messages:
    4,355
    Likes Received:
    4,999
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I want them to flip it inside out... you need to structure the whole game on the same concept, not just combat.

    I can't beleive I'll really have to spell it out :p This is stuff we tought about 15 years ago... besides since I like the concept... I'm much more inclined on trying to convince them to integrate it better.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  2. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Whatever do you mean? I was upset at R9's combat system, but once they said they will remove the cool downs and stuff then I have nothing to be upset about, the system works. As for having a sharp tongue.... What's wrong with effectively conveying an idea with words? Would you rather I be passive and indirect with my speech? I can do that, but I find that isn't an effective way to get an idea across in a forum like this.

    Why should I be indirect while giving feedback? I think well defined and direct speech is the most effective in conveying an idea, unless the idea is abstract. If the idea is abstract then it might be good to tell a story to convey the idea. Indirect speech is just not good for business. I know some cultures are very indirect, and they can make good economy cars, but in the long run it hurts their business with people who don't want to dilly dally.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  3. Joviex

    Joviex Avatar

    Messages:
    1,506
    Likes Received:
    3,122
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Burbank, CA
    that is not logical. =p

    something can be broken and liked.

    just because people are not speaking up does not mean the system is good, or liked.

    frankly, I have watched this community since day one and been a straightforward, logic bomb dropping arse about certain topics. I am, and always will be, in the minority.

    a lot of the "flavorful", non-Portalarium can do no wrong people have left and/or just now sit idle, watching. it is quite apparent that the "listening" acted upon, even when constructive, is reserved for ideas that jive with what they want to implement (or have). selective listening, or positive reinforcing.

    a case in point would be the overland map, or the jump feature, that took almost every forum voice to bubble up the disline on the design choice.

    There are a large number of people dissatisfied with combat, especially given the focus on pvp, at the perceived loss of development of other promised areas like companions.

    yet nothing is really being done to address it except some time tweaks. this community is small, don't fool yourself with the 100k plus forum members.

    there are only 1/3 of those who will be playing in game. If even 30% of those players dislike a feature, you should invest to figure out why and do something about it. 30%, 20%, those are still large amounts of people in such a small community.

    I get it. They love the system. kudos. I love everything that I write and perceive as good, and usable, by me too, but that does not make it good, nor fun, nor usable by the majority of others. That is the trap of closed door, publisher like setups that this project was supposed to help overcome. does that mean use every idea we spot put here? of course not. But it is extremely apparent there are large numbers of people, even those that do like the system, that want some fundimental changes.

    So either you are going to drive everything knowing how it interacts, perfectly, in a box, or you ask for others to let you know when it is not working, and how to fix it, from outside the box. mixing the two leads to Frankenstein designs.
     
  4. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria

    I can only comment on how I perceive the reactions as no one has accurate data about how many people like/hate the system.

    I never said a system can't be both broken and liked, though I can see how that could be inferred from my wording. I meant those to be two separate ideas.

    Idea 1: Some nay-sayers believe that are the majority, but my perception is that they are not. (this really can't be quantified; it's just a feeling).

    Idea 2: People are saying the system is broken. When I say this, I was thinking of the people who say that the system cannot be used in a way that allows skillful players to defeat less skilled players consistently, not any other version of the term 'broken." I was not clear enough about that. Since there are players who have gained some system mastery and used it to be successful, I don't see it as "broken."

    At any rate, I should have kept my mouth shut about how people spend their time and energy. It's inflammatory and not constructive.

    Things can and have been changed. Some things, however, are more immutable than others. It is my opinion that glyph combat is much more immutable at this point than many other systems. One of the reasons I believe this to be the case is that the team loves the glyph combat and I don't think that was the case with the map (it was expedient, but they didn't love it). The other reason I believe this is because the glyph system has a built-in alternative in the locked deck feature.

    But if you think you can lobby for change, go for it! It definitely can't hurt.
     
  5. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

    da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com Avatar

    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    409
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manitoba, Canada
    interesting, Doc, I have perceived far more people NOT liking the deck system.

    It has seemed to me that many people have come on and only posted once or twice, just to comment that they don't like the system. Then you have some forum regulars who do most of the arguing back and forth for and against.

    I suspect that if someone were to actually look at the numbers of individual people who like the system (rather than the amount of forum posts about it) then the people who like the system would be far in the minority.

    Just my suspicious based on what i've seen in the feedback forums so far ;) if I get bored maybe i'll go back through and take a closer look.
     
    Kal_Alyenare, docdoom77 and Joviex like this.
  6. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    "Tales From the Guild of the Alpha Test Rabbits & Rats"

    :oops: We all think we may be here as our game's Board of Directors...
    [​IMG]

    :oops: Yet we are here as the Alpha testers of a totally new product...
    Many things here are "very new" and are all connected to other things we cannot yet see that our game has in store for us all. "A world" has been constructed for us to test many things that will be in the final product and have connections to every other facet of our game. The Online MMO, the Online Single Player as well as the Offline Single Player will have every element that we have seen thus far, yet include much more that we may never see until the final public release of the product. This is to better protect our game from being copied or have other games sapping off as our game further develops for it's final public release.
    [​IMG]
    Our purpose here is to be set into an environment which is beyond or control...

    :oops: Yet we can offer our feedback and and suggestions...
    How we adapt to our environment or particular circumstance such as our combat design, will help develop new pathways through it's design and enhance the game's ability to have fun within it. Everything has a purpose, yet we can only get glimpses of what it will become. If it were just any other game, with every other game's ways within it, then it's outcome would be an exact replica of other games, yet with different clothing styles.
    [​IMG]
    Ours :rolleyes: is to improvise, adapt and overcome our environment or situation inwhich we find ourselves. To seek out those holes of missing data and any secret cheating ways of gaining the cheese without the effort. Yet anything that is truly new to us causes our minds to think outside the box which other games have trained our minds for. Many innovations in MMO gaming have come to light that allow game designers much freedom to place things into a gaming world environment as well as enhance our offline environment to higher innovation standards where almost anything is now possible.

    [​IMG]

    "From the Limits of Our Imagination"
    In our new gaming world of infinite possibilities, there are those companies that are only placing things into worlds at random because of their splash value and being first means attracting an audience to those new things that programers can create. Yet the depth of those games and quality of them are hindered by programers that have never told a story well or enhanced any object through deeper design.
    The situation our gaming worlds find themselves in, is the same market environment structure as when our friend Richard Garriott first began creating his Ultima series and went further to place his game into the first highly successful of all MMO of Ultima Online. EA and other gaming companies had programers that were creating games such as "Asteroids, Pong and many series of rat maze games" for players to engage in, yet none had deep storyline or interconnecting premise. Yet also the two dimensional worlds they were creating, did not have any real world feel where you could manipulate or use anything within a world, thus limiting what a player could interact with. Things as simple as "cow tipping" were hidden by Richard and his cohort renegade designers at a time when gaming boards of directors were rejecting such things as useless, yet these types of items or things to interact with become commonly known as "Easter Eggs", which could or could not have anything to gain from them, yet were hidden within the gaming world. This has always been a great part of what Richard's worlds have had to offer, because he practically invented these and went on to shape an ever increasing terminology which our current games now take for granted as the standard. Richard Garriott has always set the standard of MMO and online games ever since because he dose what other games have never thought of doing or providing in online gaming environments.

    [​IMG]

    "Our Moment of Discovery"
    Discovery is what our creator's games are all about. So here in our Alpha testing, we may or may not know why "a this or a that" is needed, until we are able to discover it's hidden connections after our public release. If our games designers release such information too soon, then the art of creating an environment of discovery is lost. There is allot of creation and innovation happening within our creative developers now, yet there's years of design and innovation that was well prepared before now by our SotA development team. The people that make up our SotA development team have not all worked together in a great while, yet have remained close friends and no doubt have been discussing the development of our SotA for many years, "if not decades!" So we can expect that many things about our game will not be totally known until our game is on the shelf for the public to buy as a finished game. Yet here is where our team is very skilled through experience, where our games final outcome may never stagnate in it's ever further development as time goes on...

    And I think ~Time~ has gone on quite a while now, don't you think? :p
    Have Faith and all will not be revealed, nope, all will be placed for our discovery... ;)
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
    Jynx, Margard and Lord Baldrith like this.
  7. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria


    Yeah. Like I said, I'm definitely operating on a "feeling." I also tend to give less weight to the one-shots. Not because they're not regulars, but because I have seen the lengths some people will go to in order to weight their argument and starting a dummy account just for that purpose is not beyond some people; and because it's easier for someone completely new to Shroud to be dismissive of it right off the bat. Those feelings are tempered by the actual content of a post, but they are prejudices that are not easy to overcome and definitely shading my own perceptions.

    I'd be interested to see what you come up with on your re-examine. But, unless the glyph system is reviled by a strong majority, I just don't see it going anywhere.
     
    Time Lord and AdamZax like this.
  8. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

    da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com Avatar

    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    409
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manitoba, Canada
    I don't think its going anywhere either, the devs seem to have made it pretty clear that it's here to stay regardless.

    Doesn't mean I have to like it though :p
     
    Time Lord and docdoom77 like this.
  9. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,680
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Just to clarify, I like the deck-combat but I also think that there are ways to improve it. For example by pulling out standard attacks and blocking/dodging so that you can use those actions on purpose (and preferably with an active combat-system without auto-attacks) but still use the glyphs for spells and special attacks. I would just not want a WoW like combat-system for SotA.
     
    Kaisa, Ahuaeynjgkxs and Time Lord like this.
  10. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,822
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo
    I want to see the combat all the way through - vision wise - can't really judge until the system is close to completion and has gone through a few tweeks
     
    Isaiah [MGT] likes this.
  11. High Baron Asguard

    High Baron Asguard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,832
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    125

    think you missed my point, there are lots of people here who would bend over and kiss RGs arse no matter what he produces. That's fine, its making RG money but if this game is going to be a success, if episode 2 - 5 are going to get made then the game needs to appeal FAR wider than those people. It is already hobbled by the fact its an indi game, its then further hobbled by appealing to those who like old school games. That's fine, that's what we are here for but this combat system could actually make the whole game flop.

    Put it this way, if I watched good game and this combat system comes up, and I have no other investment in this game then I wouldn't buy it, and I can see this really getting slammed by the reviewers and ignored by gamers. This could really bring the game down
     
    AdamZax, Ahuaeynjgkxs and Joviex like this.
  12. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria

    You're right, I missed your point. I missed your entire post. In fact, I don't know what you're referring to. The post of mine you quoted was a direct response to a post made by Joviex. :p Looking back I see I responded to one of your posts a few pages back, so maybe I continued some of the same points? I have so many darn conversations going in so many different threads right now, I can't keep it all straight anymore.

    As for the combat system's effect on the average consumer. I don't have an opinion. I don't know how people would react to it, honestly. I'm far too invested in the Ultima franchise to get into the headspace of those who are not. ;) But you could very well be right about that.
     
    Joviex likes this.
  13. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    There is also the matter of skills too. Not all skills are in the game yet, nor are they all balanced at this point.
     
    Joviex likes this.
  14. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Who are you quoting?
     
  15. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria

    Sir Asguard. The post directly above mine.
     
  16. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    OH ok. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't an earlier post.
     
  17. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria
    I fixed it. I had originally quoted, but it got lost when I backed out to check previous pages and I didn't realize it.
     
  18. High Baron Asguard

    High Baron Asguard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,832
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    125


    sorry, thought you were being more generic than one poster when you said that people who oppose this believe they are in the majority. Actually no one has any idea, we can say that of the active posters its about 1/3 at least who don't like it but as for those who have bought in and don't comment and the general public no one knows but personally I don't think this would be as well supported amongst those as it is amongst the "fan boys"
     
    Joviex likes this.
  19. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria

    When I wrote that, I was thinking about a post someone made reminding us that the team had previously said: "if people hate the deck system, we'll scrap it." Or something similar.

    I don't think we've had even close to a strong enough negative reaction to fulfill that caveat. We'd have to have an overwhelmingly negative reaction to get them to think about scrapping it.

    And that's really what that whole messy line of reasoning was about. We're no where near where we would have to be to get the team to consider scrapping the glyph system. It's my opinion that it has become "nearly immutable," at this point. It's got too much momentum... and I am so repeating myself. Sorry. This redundancy will not be tolerated! :p
     
  20. High Baron Asguard

    High Baron Asguard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,832
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    125

    that WAS me :p
    and yes I think we are stuck with it but I posted that because I HOPE that they see that enough people hate it that they will give another choice. Sadly though RG might say "play it your way" but has shown a propensity to force players to play it HIS way. For example those who don't want to play PvP and then we find out that we will be penalised if we don't
     
    Joviex likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.