All About Crafting - a Necro post ressurected to be rehashed forever

@The people who say I'm crying because I'm not making money. You are totally missing the point of why we are here.

We are responsible for getting this game ready as a team with the developers.

I'm interested in the economic side of the game, and the super amazing possibility that we can play within an economic simulation, at eye level. I would love to see kids getting a solid grasp on business by playing SotA.

I know people are making fortunes buying and selling right now, but I'm not. I'm trying to figure out how to make the game better.

I've sunk 100 hours into the spreadsheet, and written a book to help others benefit from my data. I've got two more to do.

I'm playtesting the hell out of QA, to the point where it feels like a job.

I sat behind Viola and watched her while taking notes for four hours yesterday so that the Outskirts can have a solid launch.

I'm trying to set up at the Welcome Center in a way that helps new players but doesn't put them on welfare.

What have YOU done to make the game better lately?

 

@uhop Hopefully it's not all gone by the time I get home

I'm about 100 hours into the spreadsheet. Next step is to figure out how to share it properly, it's massive and I'm not sure Google will digest it.

Re: no market. I'm currently about a quarter of the way through a course on Audible called "An Economic History of the World Since 1400."

It's fascinating, and I see a lot of similarities between SotA and the Mideaval Faires age. Markets are regional, or even local. Merchants can't be everywhere at once. There is value in moving products to other locations. That is all very exciting.

As mentioned in the course, when prices fall producers are incentivised to make other things. We are falling flat on that in a couple areas, as mentioned by others in this thread and others.

1 (beating a dead horse) No real lumberjack in Mideaval Europe would think their wood is worth nothing due to it being free. If they were also a Bowyer they would count the cost of the wood into the bow.

Corporate supply chains do this all the time. They own a mine, and get the ore. They sell it to their own foundry, and then again to their factory. It's basic.

2 Only artists crank out work repeatedly just to get better, with no eye for profit. Thus the "starving artist." So producer skill leveling is an abbaration from a true economy.

3 We don't have a wide variety of craftable items. This will take care of itself, just as it did during the Industrious (intentional, check out the course if you are curious) Revolution prior to the Industrial Revolution. Bonus: increased consumption comes with it.

 

I once selled reagencies for 250 each 100 Stack, i doesnt take hoe's, water and time into Account.
But then i gave up producing to sell seriously because i just hadnt the time beside my adventures to take care a lot for.

 

The best way to price your goods is to use a Gross Margin Calculator. this is the one i use http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/financial/margin-calculator.php aim for a Gross Marin of 40%

 

I dig the whole Medieval thing, I really do. The truth of the matter is in olden times people did exchange goods making them go far away. To wit: in Asia archaeologists are finding Ancient Chinese goods together with Ancient Greek goods, in good old continental US of A was found a Viking coin. While it is not an evidence of civilization contacts, but it indicates that goods were trade up and down all around world, even before Medieval times.

And I cannot even put my merchant not on my territory without owning a real estate somewhere else.

Imagine I got a primo location, where a major traffic is. What if I am not very efficient businessman? In Real Life (tm) I have a lot of options on how to handle it. For example, I can sublet. In SotA, I am a squatter by definition: if I have this property, no way to kick me out no matter what I do. Some people can try to buy me out, yet there are no incentives to sell out, unless I see a game as a way to get some money (I don't). I can just get the place, and do literally nothing. Pure luck, no social lift of any kind --- it is like there is no "common good" as a concept whatsoever.

I am not talking theoretically. In major locations I inspected merchants usually to find that what they have are grossly overpriced, never changed, not what I need, and they do not buy anything. BTW, I can count on one hand merchants that had some orders listed, and none that were realistic --- we have this ability, but clearly it doesn't work.

True. The system, how it is set up now, doesn't cater for it. The best we can do with loot is to scrap it to something, which has no correspondence in the Real Life (tm). There is no way to melt metal parts without ore --- I am not sure it corresponds to reality either. Failed enchantments and masterworks ruin an item completely --- again, totally illogical, and wasteful. Hence, we have "starving crafters".

Another major difference with the history: no technical progress, no new technological processes invented/improved by manufacturers, no new objects to reflect unanticipated needs.

OTOH, it looks like Port had in mind a different self-sustaining model: everybody is a head cook, and a bottle-washer --- Natural Economy, like in remote villages.

Heh. I can trump it: all items we have are identical. There is no difference between a sword produced by a novice, and by a GM. It is going to be exactly the same sword modulo materials it was made of. There is no difference in quality, which will justify its use value. The only real difference --- enhancements and masterworks. A GM can add several of them, while a novice will have problems churning out a single one. But if somehow by a pure luck a novice did manage to have the same number of improvements, it will be identical to the one produced by GM. How does it correspond to the Real Life (tm)? It doesn't.

Some may say "but a GM can drop the price, because she will have less fails while enchanting". Again, as we can see the only real difference is in improvements. Yet, in a stable situation the price should include the cost of education as well --- previously failed attempts, when a GM was a noob. Another point: dropping prices by GMs will lead to a huge barrier-to-entry for new crafters.

How was it solved in Medieval times? There was an institute of journeymen, who worked for masters helping them with simple tasks gradually working up their way to more complex ones eventually becoming a master.

Theoretically I can do hilts, you can do blades, some GM can assemble them into a sword and put enchantments. Unfortunately it sounds artificial --- we don't need a GM to make a sword. Another attempt at cooperation: we do swords, and some GM masterwork them. Hmm. Plausible, yet I don't see the journeyman journey here --- how we become better at masterworking, without masterworking? Ditto for enchantments. Let's admit it: the system is not set up for that at all. It is geared towards self-sustainment.

 

When someone points out problems in an argument, it is not missing the point as to why we are here. It's not always easy to say how to make the game better. Engaging in dialectic makes things better!

There are aspects of economics and game economics that are similar. But you would never say "I would love to see kids getting a solid grasp on archery by playing SotA." Even in a game with a closer to real archery system like Skyrim. Things in MMO-land are always going to be similar and different to real life. That has to be taken into account in any modeling you do.

Case in point:

No real lumberjack makes wood appear by pressing a button. No real lumberjack will work "just for fun" without expecting compensation. No real lumberjack would hand wood out to new lumberjacks. This is where game economics changes things. It's not basic - these things change the dynamics substantially and affect prices. It's complex. If you want to make things better, try to unravel these dynamics and then suggest game mechanics that need to be in place to help the economy thrive.

You do get it here...

Yes and in what I've been trying to say, this may be a reason why there could be demand for something like a basic bow in SotA. But your market is masterworker/enchanters, not the player base at large. Just because you sell a bow in SotA, it doesn't mean that people are using it for what they might in real. People in SotA should only buy them as a "training dummy". Or they could buy to arbitrage, like some do with baby formula in real. If people are role-playing and make a basic bow and say, "someone should buy this like in real and use it as a starter weapon", they are simply expecting things to operate in a different way than they actually do. Now if the game mechanics changed, and people were limited to a few skill trees (I'm not saying this should happen, only for argument), then the game economics would change and starter players might make a reasonable choice to buy starter equipment. But not in SotA in the way the game actually is and differs from real.

Or if you prefer the way @uhop says it:

One last example is what I do. I run bookstores in SotA which I guarantee are not "making a fortune". In fact, I could earn much more gold by spending my time grinding. So what are the factors as to why I engage in this business? To promote this aspect of SotA, in other words, player-made content. It's also to help authors get more attention to the work they do. Plus, it's also a bit of a fun role-play. Want to try to figure out some complex economics? Try to figure out how to price a book in SotA.... I don't ever assume running a publishing house and bookshops in SotA is very similar to real at all. And my "economic" choices are not driven by profit at all.

The spreadsheet is a wonderful idea... it takes a lot of time to do things like that. I've spent similar amounts of time collecting data in other areas. But 100 hours is not enough to figure out SotA economics, it's just one small piece of the puzzle. That's why I said they could use a game economist for a whole year. One of the biggest ways we as players don't actually "help" the developers is that we assume things are simpler than they are. You hear that in answers given to questions in all the hangouts and post-mortems since day 1.

Another way to get at it is to ask all those people "who are making fortunes" as you say. I've bet they've at least intuitively grasped the dynamics of the SotA economy and have accepted it the way it is. I guarantee they aren't killing the economy and that they are providing valuable data to Port as to how the game economy is actually working.

 

PLAYER RUN ECONOMY, i can and will do what i like within the EULA and mechanics of the economy.
If that means i break your crafting model, welcome to market PvP.

Point 2 is a very valid business tactic.
3 is a completely valid business tactic, taking market share before taking profit happens in the the real world all the time.

1 is entirely up to how the player wants to play. If they, wrongly to my mind, consider that all the ore they mined themselves as free and there the only cost is NPC fuel. They completely miss the idea of potential value, that is up to them, find a different market. Better yet buy all their stuff and relist at what you consider to be the correct price.

Clue - Value of an item has nothing to do with build cost in a player driven economy. It has everything to do with supply and demand, economics 101. Something is worth what SOMEONE ELSE will pay for it, not what YOU paid for it, or what it cost you to produce.

To me it sounds like you need to go on a Economics 101 course.


Regards
Spung

 

I was specifically speaking to people who say I am just mad I'm not making a profit, that is hold stop crying, or dry my tears. Real conversation is always welcome, trolls aren't.

I haven't ignored the rest of your message, just wanted to address that one whole I have 10 minutes this morning.

 

Since you're new here, better to say this now... You should avoid rude snarky remarks like this, lest you want to invite moderation.

 

In my opinion the fundamental problem with the sota player run economy is that everyone can do everything. We don't NEED crafters, or resources gatherers, etc.

• Separate crafting and adventuring exp pools mean I can adventure and make all of my own gear. (Why would I buy gear from you when I can just make it myself?)
  
• The unlimited exp in crafting system means I can make everything!!!! Potions, food, shields, armor, weapons, ... (Why do I need any of your stuff?)
• This means people will make the gear they want and have lots of left over trash that they don't want, so why not sell it for next to nothing just to get rid of it

There are currently 2 main reasons to buy a crafted item from another player
1.) If you would rather pay someone else instead of grinding out items yourself
2.) If you want a high end item that is beyond your current ability to craft
This means your potential customers come from a limited subset of the player base

HOW TO FIX IT?
Really unpopular... change the system so you CAN'T craft everything and adventure on the same toon. (Maybe adventure and gather resources, but not craft the gear too. Or maybe just become good at one crafting skill? I can masterwork blades, or I can enchant weapons, etc)

Now I have to make alts or buy gear, potions, etc from other players

• Sure some players will make alts but many will not
• This will greatly increase the pool of potential customers (Players that dont want to mess with alts are now all potential customers)

For the record I don't see how skill decay on death for crafting (slated for Q3 or Q4 this year?) will really fix this. Unless @Chris / @DarkStarr are VERY DRACONIAN I bet I will still be able to adventure, gather ore, make my potions/food, and masterwork/enchant my own gear. (IE I wont be buying anything from you...)

-----------------------------------------------------------
PS The only real profitable market in this game is for items that people cant get/make themselves

• Artifacts
• Bundle/Pledge rares
• Add on store items
• Resources that are too difficult or boring to gather for many players (silver ore etc)

Why? Because if you cant do it yourself then maybe you consider saving up and buying it from someone else....

 

Fair point, but it did seem to me that the OP does not understand player driven economies, but i could have put it in more palatable way.

Regards
Spung

 

This is really good, down to earth commentary. I price in a rather uncalculated manner right now as we simply don't have elegant tools to evaluate the market. In my 1 to 2 hours a day to play the game (which I even find myself forgoing more and more these days) I simply don't have time to visit the major market centers and evaluate market conditions for optimal sale prices. Since my vendor is not commission free, and rather isolated in Spite, I can't do a lot of price discovery there. On public vendors, since I know that item will disappear in a week, I price to sell feeling confident it will sell as there's a chance I might not be able to check in on it. So, typically, I only sell items far below what I think their value should be, far below opportunity costs, and far below what minimal market checking I can observe (as I don't know if listed items are actually selling for the listed prices) to ensure I raise some gold to at least be able to advance my skills.

From what I understand of the hardcore adventurers, you can actually make more gold if you don't touch crafting and simply adventure and sell raw materials, such that the time vs. reward for purchasing items is actually much better than making your own. I think it's actually more of a problem that a substantial amount of the community enjoys playing (or at least the idea of playing) a successful crafter, so the producer/buyer ratio is out of whack.

I like this analogy. The Devs have made us crafters all starving artists

 

I probably fit into the hardcore adventurer category. As such I can gather my own resources. Sell a lot of them to make gold and keep some of the resources to craft my own gear.

 

You would have to try hard to loose gold by crafting/vendoring. Sure, at first, you will have to invest substantially in your crafting profession, but as you get your skills up you will gather more materials faster and salvage more efficiently.

There are many items that new players need made mostly of gathered materials, so even if you are charging 1GP per hide or ore or whatever, and you add in the costs of fuel and tools, you can undercut NPC vendor prices and still technically make a "profit".

This is like online poker, you can just keep going all in at great risk and realize a short term gain, but with diligence and patience you will eventually outperform vendors that undercut the market. I say this from 3 months of vendoring (public, taxed and tax free)

All in all I agree with you that player based economies are prone to the Walmart effect (which I have seen playout in RL communities over 10 year courses and in other games [Face of Mankind]). However, the tone of your argument is alarmist and I respectfully disagree that the SotA economy will ever break in a way that breaks the game itself.

 

I understand wanting to craft because it's an ostensibly fun part of the game, but don't you think you could simply buy gear, not craft anything, and at the end of the day, have the same or better gear with more gold left over?

Along with this, I was also considering that I haven't made anything yet with the explicit intent to sell it for a profit. I've made junk to level crafting skills and sold some of it, I've made things to learn the recipe and sold it, I've made my own gear to adventure in, but I've never actually yet sat down and said, "ok, I'm going to make a set of items I know I can sell for profit to a specific audience". I think there is a market for the ultra high end item market. But there's a huge upfront investment to get to serve that market. Since there's not a healthy mid-range market, severe price undercutting develops. I simply keep trying to level my skills until I feel like I can serve a market that can offer some profit equivalent to or greater than the raw materials market. That curve seems to keep getting steeper and steeper.

 

Just run it in windowed mode and watch a flick on your other monitor

 

Crafting is alot of fun in sota, it should be made harder!

 

The Solution is easy, but its something they dont want to fix.

Solution -

Not ALL players can craft based on skill cost.
Best weapons found should be on bosses, not other players.
Some people will have to make a choice between being a crafter or a fighter You cant have both!

that last comment may need more clarification so here goes...........

Crafters can fight just well enough to survive the elements while collecting resources. Resources that are in dangerous places they cant go should be Hired out to fighters who fight (not craft) Then you would truly have a player run system. With the way it is now, crafters are the only ones making any money worth a damn!

If i run a business i have to pay someone else to get my product to me, Im just a business owner not a manufacturer, Somone else supplies me (supply and demand)

But of course SOTA will not change a thing, so we are stuck grinding!! SOTA WAY!

Id give up all my crafting abilities to be a better fighter, buying my items i need to fight from suppliers only, but it doesnt matter in this game, crafting skills and fighting skills are separate, so i can be a crafter as good as the best, but.........i can supply myself with resource i need, so i dont need anyone else. (thats the main problem with this game)

 

Yepp ive said the same from very early days.
Why would anyone sell their high end mats to me when they can just use them themselves.

 

The "problem" that prevents us from creating a working player economy is that we play the game for fun. When I harvest materials and craft things, it's my chosen leisure time, unlike my IRL job that I have to go to to earn my living.

This makes it problematic to put a price on the time I spent harvesting/crafting, because I already did it out of enjoyment. It could be seen as rational to sell the things for cheap just to move it, since playing the game is it's own reward and the gold earned is more of a bonus on top. There are way to many crafters for the potential market because crafting is a fun part of the game for many.

I think you are kind of asking us to abandon a perfectly rational behaviour which is never going to be realistic. I do agree though it is a shame that the utopia of a functonal player economy is so hard to realize, but I just don't see a good solution.