Already Frustrated w/ CONVO!

Awesome post Lum! I love how vocal you are in this thread. It feels good to get this level of feedback from a dev. You rock!

 

First, thanks Lum. It's nice to know that we have the ear of the devs, every little bit we can help with is our pleasure.
I can't say that I've ever noticed any type of highlight on keywords/phrases in any of the NPC text. Is it merely a bolding of the text? If that's the case then the particular font being used right now does not lend itself to reading the highlight very well. Or more than likely it's just me, but I'll definitely check next build. LOL if it was still yesterday I'd jump on in and check it.
Maybe someone out there has a screenshot of some dialogue that shows the highlighting from this last build??

Well I think I know what your answer will be in this first part LD, as it does break immersion some, but having names turned on will help with this tremendously. Even if you don't have names on there's also the blue halo around the feet of your current target.

But the NPC conversation interface system you're proposing is a HUGE effort on top of what they're working on already. Just ask the devs over at Bioware. The dialogue system for SWTOR was a tremendous effort, given it was one of their selling points, and it took a LONG time to get it to where it is now. And it's still not perfect. It also doesn't work in a multiplayer environment like the one we have in SotA. It would require someone to choreograph camera movements, NPC movements, timing dialogue queues, along with a bunch of other stuff I'm sure I'm not thinking of. Let alone the fact that right now almost all of the NPC's are moving around some.

I do think that we should be able to color code dialogue from NPCs though. Or something along those lines that falls within the already existing system.

I would also suggest a more legible on-screen font for dialogues as well but that might be another topic! Basically just give us the options.

 

It really wasn't obvious to me how decent the conversation system actually was until i tried it in single player.

During Multiplayer, the local chat issue and the fact there were tons of people running around talking and spamming none of whom you could always see made it really hard to focus on NPCs to appreciate it.

 

I can't help myself but it seems that every compromise we have to accept for the game seem to made at the expense of the single player part... No fully fleshed out companions, a MMO-conversation system, no zoomed out 3d overworld view, no real choices and consequences during quests... Every feature of the game seems to be targeted at the MMO folks and if there is something to cut they cut it from the SP part... I backed this game hoping it would be a great single player RPG like the old Ultimas and somehow I get disappointed over and over again...

 

It is primarily a Multiplayer game.

That was pretty clear from the original Kickstarter that the focus wasn't going to be on a Ultima sequel but more of a "spiritual" successor and a "selective multiplayer" new type of experience.

I knew from the beginning it wasn't going to be an Ultima single player sequel.

Even so I'm pretty happy we're getting an Ultima universe online game.

Personally, I think there is a lot of nostalgia for a classic Ultima, maybe an Ultima VII enhanced retro graphic style game that is SP only and runs on some hardware like the PS Vita or mobile.

Something that brings the feeling of Ultima V or Ultima VII back for on the go entertainment. But that's not what SoTA is.

 

It is bolding but with R5 it will also have underlining. I'd show you a screenshot with underlining but lighting is currently being worked on and it makes text overexposed; here's an illustration from a previous build however.

This is a good idea; I'll see about having NPC text directed to you and NPC text directed to others have its own unique color.

Well, fonts aren't just plug-and-play in Unity, they require a bit more prep than just supplying a TTF file. (Not a good deal more, but a bit out of reach of the average user). As for the choices used - I picked the overhead chat bubble one because I think Georgia is a very legible serif font; someone else picked the one in the chat window as a sans serif variant for much the same reason. I'm not an artist so I couldn't tell you which would be an ideal font but I can say that some of the "medieval" ideas proposed such as the one in the earliest prototypes simply aren't that readable.

We COULD do everything in New Britannian Runic, though....

 

We should *definately* be able to type in NBR in the game.

Also checkout the patched version of the font Lazarus used. Not the one that shipped with 1.2 but the readability patched one.

It's a take on the Ultima VII font; but more readable. Gives the flavor of the medieval world, methinks

 

I never got that impression. I thought that they wanted to try to give us both. A full single player game like the Old SP-Ultimas and the ability to go online and play like in an MMO...

It was advertised this way on the Kickstarter website:

"Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with “Selective Multi-Player”.

Shroud of the Avatar is infused with rich storylines, deeply integrated into game play, developed by Best Selling Author Tracy Hickman and RPG legend Richard Garriott.
Players will adventure in an interactive world where their choices have consequences, ethical paradoxes give them pause, and they play a vital part in weaving their own story into the immersive world and lore surrounding them.
Shroud of the Avatar is a Selective Multiplayer game, allowing players to choose how they want to play! Whether in Single-Player Offline mode or any of three online modes, the main quest line will provide greater than 40 hours of focused, story driven content.
Shroud of the Avatar can be played as an offline DRM free solo experience or online, where our servers will enable player to player transactions, group finding, patching, streaming of dynamic content, and exploit prevention."

 

Yeah, I mean not to derail the thread, but you can see which is more work ? SP or making the Multiplayer work ?

Which is obviously going to dominate team resources and thinking? I Think they tried to split down the middle to appeal to everyone.

Having said that tho - it's too early for any judgements. after R7 or so then we might be better informed to revisit this.

 

There are definitely choices and consequences during quests, we've even prototyped these in the Hidden Vale. I'm not going touch on the overworld map (that's being adequately hashed out elsewhere) or companions (I don't know what we can talk about there yet plot-wise and we're not at a state in the AI where we can really design for them yet) but I would strongly argue that trying to cast "MMO folks" and "SP folks" as two separate groups isn't accurate; there are people who have little interest in one aspect or the other but it is part of the same game and it is not a zero-sum choice on what to develop for.

As for what you term an "MMO-conversation system", in fact the multiplayer aspect is what has made it difficult to experience/test, as Tradyblix posted earlier. We need to make it more tolerant of a multiplayer environment so it can be played in that way, but I already pointed out my issues with your proposed conversation UI and they had nothing to do with multiplayer; we are developing a game where NPCs interact with each other and with the player, not as static actors but as dynamic ones. This does limit how we can present interacting with them textually while still keeping that dynamic aspect.

 

I found an image of what I was thinking of. Something like this but more medieval, not taking up the whole screen, and a text entry box at the bottom instead of numbered choices.



You would initiate it by selecting an NPC and typing anything and hitting enter. without an npc selected no conversation box opens, but that doesn't mean an npc wont respond to you.

The difference is really just in the UI, but it's enough that this would feel more engaged.

 

The obvious problem is this isn't going to work in Multiplayer where there are things going on behind this massive windows you'd need to see.

I think the minimalistic approach to the interface is actually a good idea. Well, once it works anyway.

 

Then why not have a typical MMO chat for the chat with players and something a bit more organic and exciting, diversified for the NPC conversations? After all the story is told in a large part through conversations so I think the conversations should be presented in an exciting manner to underscore the story and present it in a more special way than just reading in a chat window.

 

Well like I said, it wouldn't be full screen, I'd have to play with it a bit, but basically the UI would look just like the current chat box, and it could be see through, but it's it's own box and has our heads on either side of it.

More like the current shopkeepers box for styling, and just put our heads on either side. It wouldn't be any more intrusive to multiplayer than buying/selling or having your inventory+paperdoll open.

You would still have your regular chat window visible as well. But these aren't captured there, saved to their own place for us to reference later if we desire, hopefully.

 

Lum, would it be possible to add support for those of us who use British spelling? I'd hate to be ignored by an NPC because I asked about 'rumours' instead of 'rumors', and when you're so used to spelling things in a particular way it's automatic to type like that. (I live in Canada now and a lot of Canadians use similar spelling to the UK too.)

A few comments on the whole system:

I do understand how having the text in the chat box can decrease immersion, but I also feel that some sort of record of what was said is important. If a player doesn't read fast enough, or happens to look away from their screen at the wrong moment due to a RL distraction, they may miss something. A possible alternative might be to have the NPC's sentence remain visible above their head until the player presses a key to continue, to make sure they have time to read everything?

I also like Mishri's idea of showing a little portrait of the person you're talking to if possible, if the decision is to go ahead with a completely separate chat window for NPC conversations. The issue with that, I guess, is that it may be harder to include other NPCs butting in but perhaps that could be worked in somehow. [Edit: saw the latest post on this and that window might be too large, but something along those lines might be possible.]

I would love to see NPCs having conversations between themselves - perhaps we could pick up a few clues about troubles around town by eavesdropping on their chatter, or it could just add a bit of flavour to the world. (One of the things I remember most about NPCs in LotRO was stumbling across a Hobbit marriage proposal - it was so sweet!) If the team is lacking the time required to come up with hundreds of short everyday conversations about the weather, goods for sale, the price of fish or whatever, I'm sure that the community would be happy to help write some of those and let the devs concentrate on any quest-related stuff.

 

I'd like portraits if possible. At least for the major NPCs.

 

Shh.....dont scare the dev away!

I'm sticking with my notion that a fresh take on the U7 NPC convo system is all that's needed. Double click the dude/dudette, camera zooms in on them, the rest of the world is silenced for a minute (barks, other players etc), and a box opens with an opening sentence from the NPC and under it several keywords to click on (name, job, etc), click one, they say something else and (if appropriate) your choices change (news, spouse, help, etc). Click "bye" to end it. Doesnt conflict with multi player conversation. Fact is when you are interacting with an NPC....you are interacting with an NPC, period. You wont be simultaneously carrying on a dozen chats with fellow players. Heck you arnt even interacting with the virtual world (ie walking around) so it can take up as much room as it needs.

Simple, easy, efficient, effective.

 

*tiptoes*

I thought the general idea was to get away from the whole 'click on a choice' thing, though, except as an option for accessibility reasons (language, disability, etc.).

 

Hmmm, then I was looking in the wrong place for the emphasis then and never noticed it in the chat dialogue. I was thinking it would be in the popup dialogue.

Excellent, glad I could contribute. Keep in mind people with color deficiencies though when choosing the color. Hehe yeah I know, so many caveats!

LOL well I'm not suggesting THAT but there have been several studies regarding serif and san serif fonts when read online. The san serif fonts have been considered much more legible. However when printed the serif fonts did better in testing than the san serif. So take that for what it is I guess, hehe. And yes I realize the font used here is a serif font... we do have the option of changing it to something other than Andale though.

 

This is a critical set of observations. Thinking about this system as a modal shift really clears things up. You could even think of it as a modal layer - sits on top of movement, interaction and player chat, and sits below menu UI, inventory UI, whatever else.

Couple it with what someone else above posted (press a button to "continue" NPC text that is overly long-winded) and the option to click keywords rather than type them, and you've removed a lot of the barriers.

Obviously I don't know what the technical limitations are here... but this is a pretty huge system, it basically is the entry point to story and quest content... seems pretty justified to throw resources at it.