An attempt at solving PvP versus PvE (in an hopefull peacefull way, ironic given the topic i know)

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Pounce, Jun 6, 2018.

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  1. Pounce

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    -Pvp players like to play against other players
    -PvE players do not like against other players (for whatever reason)

    Ideally booth groups are happy and pay for the game so we all get new shiny things by happy developers.

    As it is:
    Some content is for PvP only OR forces PvE players into PvP.

    That is silly (sorry, it is, hear me out)

    Either PvE players never visit this content, or they do and naturally get waxed by PvP players who are naturally much better at PvP (and have not even an tool knowing they are going against basically a sitting duck.

    That pisses people off.

    Then, ploys to make "PvP pallable to PvE players" "You like it if you only try it" blablabla

    NOT A GOOD IDEA.

    99.99% ofr Sotas playerbase is legally allowed to drink alcohole.

    They are old enough to have by now made up there minds in an informed sensible way about there opinion regarding PvP or not.

    Cheap tricks like materials only avaiable in PvP scenes, more exp/less exp, PvP only scenes and so on (everything that "nudges" people into "just give it a try") are recipe for disaster and contempt.

    I am not 100% against PvP, but given there are people who PvP only for trolling reasons it has to be regulated, there is no way around AND in an way that does not make substantial parts of the game PvP only (right now it is, all the ruins are nice areas i do not like at all to visit, but would, if they where PvE)

    And no, it does not tickle my exitement nerve knowing that I could get into an tussle with people who are lighyears more experienxed at PvP than me with my toon geared and trained to effective do PvE, I do not play russian roulette in RL either, nor do i try to stop speeding trucks with my forehead.

    If we get siege scenes where two big groups of players have at it for bragging rights i am fine with that, I would take part even knowing that i propably have a snowball in hells chance, but it would be something i consider "PvP having an point and fun"

    We have instances.

    What exactlty would be so bad if PvP players (or people who flag PvP) play in one, the PvE players in the other.

    Why do we need special zones for PvP and now give all to booth groups where they can play there style unmolested by the other.

    The chance that "some PvP rubbs of at the PvE player because they play in the same instance" is nil.

    The Chance that one of booth sides becomes angry at the other way more probable.

    It takes extra ressources to figure out and implement mechanics how they interact (grouping PvP and PvE players, insta flagging of PvE players attacking PvP players and so on.

    I know some Devs have this idea that somehow one can nudge an PvE player into liking PvP.

    This in my humble opinion not an smart idea, very few people in Sota are at an age where one has not made an choice on that topic out of experience.

    And as soon people have made an choice out of the things they experienced themself it becomes an recipe for disaster to nudge, prod, tickle or bribe them into "just give it a try"

    My proposal is

    Make PvP and PvE seperate instances people can flag(switch) into at the oracle.

    Booth instance have the benfefit to allow seprate rule sets removing the problem of balancing PvE and PvP in an basical PvE enviroment, and allow booth sides to explore ALL content at there own preferred way to play.

    I would prefer if an Mod locks this to only read.

    I will not discuss my ideas (because i think there was already enough discussion about it, and i think the outlined proposal is in the interest of booth sides)

    I see my solution as the one who has least friction for booth sides, allows booth sides to interact as they want on there own terms.

    Oh.. And leavivng for example Blood Bay PvP only would be in my opinion an good idea (forced PvP flagging and what not.)

    It gives PvE players the chance to visit the "bad side of the town" and PvP players some stupid tourists to rob.

    Banning of people who use that to troll at the option of every player who is "truly PvP flagged"

    (so, someone who is resident in bloodbay able to ban every non resident who is not most the time PvP flagged to prevent things like the "pickpocket and insta PvP flag to gank" exploit as an example.

    Well as said, I just wanted to get that off my mind because i think it would be an way to solve and improve the games proplems, make it more interesting, less development time spend on the game with more benefit for all and so on, it is not really meant to be discussed because i doubt there is much that has not been said by now, or screamed or whatever, just food for thoughts, because I really think "nudgng people into PvP" is an idea that REALLY toxic for the game)

    Alternative make Sota an mirror world where exp gained goes to two toons, one PvE one PvP, skills though separate.

    You all are smart enough to consider how that would work and the benefits of it.
     
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  2. Kpopgurl

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    I think the purist approach will in the end make things bad for all parties. PvE and PVP will be intertwined here. Either you like the game or not I suppose. Catering to people who want to be completely shielded by playerinteraction and demand the same access to rewards is as wrong as to give in to people who demand to kill everyone everywhere anytime...

    I think they should continue and try to even more intertwine these aspects to get ALL interaction in the world more interesting. I would love this sandbox to give more freedom but also consequence. What most games miss is the rewarding of cooperation.
     
  3. Boris Mondragon

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    To the OP; I just happened to walk in here and saw your post. You are suggesting a UO Trammel/Felucca setup which is not intended by the developers. I respect the effort you put into your “compromise” yet it will not happen. I am not a pvp player but surely will get into it soon as there is not much else for and endgame available after adv level 100 plus.

    Maybe factions with battleground is more plausible where you can only pvp the opposing faction in a high risk/reward environment with separate locations set up for those events. Only did PvP once in a ship christening event and found it to be the most fun I have had here to date. Once we have ship movement and battles then I am all in for PVP and will seek a swordsmaster to train this lvl 109 dual wield chainmail wearing pirate. R/Boris/El Pirata
     
  4. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I liked what @Chris was talking about today for the Trial of the Obsidians; intro PvP with no loot, free for all style, minor rewards. That would be a great step for concentual PvP.

    Eventually, move Shardfall and Ruin scenes to something similar.

    Hardcore PvP has places like Blood Bay, the Fall, and eventually Castle Sieges. I'd be perfectly content with open scenes being Trial type PvP.
     
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  5. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    The problem, as only maybe I see it, is that this is not a PvP game. If it's not a PvP game and it is going to have PvP, then it has to be kept apart. Games like WoW do this arenas, PvP areas, and huge zones (I think, can't remember as I haven't played since probably 2012/2014?). Elder Scrolls Online does this with a huge zone that I was hyped for, but the combat (much as with SotA) didn't feel right to me. Archeage combat, Black Desert combat (not much experience in), was a fun type of PvP. Actiony (is that a word?). Archeage , to me, was really good at the PvP. Here, and in other games, combat feels tactical. Which is fine. But probably not in an "open-world" (even if zoned off, which SotA is) game.

    Now, an open-world PvP game this is not. There are games out there like that. I like them. Maybe you do, too. Maybe not. And that's okay. Darkfall. Dark Age of Camelot. Upcoming games like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall (not a big fan since I think it's going to be "seasonal" in that you have some sort of wipe). Albion Online was like this. Those are (and maybe will be for those that have not released) fun games. I hated Darkfall if only because I lost all my **** if I died. Somewhat the same with Albion, because I still lost all my **** but took some solace in the fact that my killer received most of my stuff as "trash" which was worthless to him/her.

    And this is the crazy thing I like about SotA PvP (again, not that I did it much): I would not lose everything. The ransom system, again just my thoughts, is awesome as a concept. I get to PvP and not lose all my ****! If you cry about ransom, I can't argue with you. That's a personal thing you need to work out for yourself. But it is not "actiony". That's just the type of combat I prefer. Not that I am good at it. But since I can't play a lot to become a master at it, the tactful combat in PvP keeps me out maybe until I get my skills up. Especially when it seems a hidden dagger/sword can quickly sneak up on me and 1-2-3 shot me with some bleeds and/or cripples mixed in. That ain't fun. Not to say I wouldn't try. But we get back to the whole "no one who isn't full-on PvP will play". I am not full-on PvP. I like to do **** other than get my murder on.

    So, in a game like SotA that will never be full on PvP (like a lot of other games out there that are or might be good), PvP zones (the equivalent of arenas) are all that we probably should get. I am for this. It's the best "compromise". They can't (or maybe won't) do anything different. And that isn't bad.

    I once, long ago, asked about how do I get to enjoy PvP zone content. Sometimes the answer is so simple: play in single-player mode.

    I do agree, however, that nothing in a PvP zone should be required to make a person who does not like to PvP enter the zone to get it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  6. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    Those new Trial of the Obsidians sound really cool! I might finally venture forth and do a little PvP for the first time....
     
  7. Nog

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    I second this. I lost all interest in further exploring those sort of PvE/sort of PvP zones that are Ruins for the 8 pages quest line as soon as I became rudely awakened that players with toons who can stealth 1-shot another 500HP toon will periodically hang out in these areas. No thanks to that sort of absurd imbalance. The only defense against coming across an unbeatable 1-shotter toon is...to not be in the zone to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  8. Drake Aedus

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    So, I don't think SotA is intended to be a PvP or PvE game, I think the idea is it's a virtue/interactive sandbox.

    I want all of the content to be good, even PvP, and I think this battle ground idea is a great one for having more participation in an aspect of the game that could probably use a lot of fixes. I just hope that I don't feel less powerful or useful out tackling content that is not another living Avatar due to the unavoidable changes that more people participating in PvP content will create.

    All that said, no one want to be forced into paying the "******* tax" just to see some content. But maybe we need a "protector of the realm" group that offers escort services instead of a mechanic that locks certain play-styles out of the game.
     
  9. Dhanas

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    I dislike the idea of 2 separate istances for PVP and PVE, would be better if mulitplayer (outside POT) was full PVP. Being this game an RPG I think this is the best solution, since it's realy hard to explain why everyone is protected by the oracle and people cannot choose how to act. The oracle protection don't make you choose what to do, you are protected, you cannot be attacked, this is not a realistic situation and totaly far from what I think is a "Role play game".
     
  10. Anpu

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    The Oracle’s protection is story related though. She can’t protect you in certain areas.
     
  11. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Not to mention, that if all multiplayer was full PVP the population would be even smaller than it already is. Thus, this is never going to happen.
     
  12. Nog

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    Competing for resources in mining/gathering zones AND being able to get ganked by a player's superpowered toon that you could never hope to defeat in a hundred encounters...yes, that would really curb Multiplayer's popularity.
     
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  13. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    One thing I'd really like to see are resource nodes be instanced per user. So we would share scenes, but we wouldn't see the same set of resources. This means we would no longer compete with other players for them, there would be no reason to leave multiplayer (thus improving social and PVP interaction).

    This wouldn't change spawn points, so players would still frequent the same locations. Less competition for limited spawns. Frankly, the only thing this wouldn't work for is creatures, but I don't see players leave multiplayer due to limited number of wolves to kill...
     
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  14. parkinglot

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    Noticeably, as a newbie in UO you could always make an impact in the PvP world. You could throw an explosion potion that would do 13-30 damage (30% of a players health) and that was a weapon which was picked up off the ground, or stolen from any body with the common sense to carry potions. Not only this, but the timings and chances to interrupt high level mage spells were always in play. Never at a point could you do nothing.

    If the scale in SoTA is so large, that an end-game mage can just completely dominate newbies, then yes, why not break apart the PvP into its own world. Obviously there needs to be a place for players to play. The joy of the game is just to sneak around with 3 of your friends and snipe out the hottest loot. Any one that says different is completely on one. Is it really that hard to diminish the skill sets to an even playing field, to add certain zones in the game which are more difficult, drive harder loot drops/better magic weapons? I'm 20% certain I would play this game 2 more hours a day just to PvP.
     
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  15. Floors

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    My experience with PvP was this: Some level 100+ player sneaks up behind me, and before I know what's happening I've taken several 200+ point attacks and it's over.

    So that's why I turned off PvP for a while until I can reach that level. It's just not fun.
     
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  16. Stundorn

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    Pvp need no levels, pvp need an even playing field for everybody equal strong.
    Sea of Thieves is the best PvX sandbox ever made because of no separation, no vertical progress, no OP equip or skills, it's just about playerskill and everything is mixed up very well and feels perfectly timed. You can have pvp just for fun .you can avoid pvp most of the time if you dont want to, you can go for pvp and sure find people to fight against and everything happens is fun, even dying is fun sometimes , it's cooperative and competetive and it allways feels like roleplaying although there are no specific roleplayers around.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2018
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