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An example of why Reagents should be required for all spells.

Discussion in 'Release 20 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Aug 15, 2015.

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  1. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Right! Now you've done it! It's shameless plug time! ;)

    Reagents: Refining & Mixing Spells
     
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  2. Curt

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    So if you typical spend N reagents/hour how long should it take to gather N reagents?
     
  3. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I imagine the majority of people will be buying them from players who specialize in gathering or refining (if that ever goes in). Remember also we'll be able to grow our own to some extent.
     
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  4. helm

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    Yes, I did not mean to imply that my scribblings would be something new...probably discussed in tens of earlier posts that I've missed...but it's good to keep these ideas afloat :)

    Really like the premixing idea -- so many added possibilities...
     
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  5. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Actually I don't think there's been a lot of talk about ways to improve on reagent use. Chris has his idea.. then Redfish and me early this year. As far as I'm aware that's about it. Mostly it's been people going on about pre-alpha cost and availability. So to have someone new come up with processing through crafting is somewhat refreshing. :)

    As for me.. I'm shameless plug happy. I take every opportunity I can get. ;) Mainly for the reason you mention.. keeping ideas afloat.
     
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  6. redfish

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    Another reagent thread, Drocis! Really!

    Anyway. from the other thread,
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-using-reagents-what.35209/page-4#post-406568
    I mention the thing about making reagents having added potency, but also I want to specifically bring up again for comment that I think if you make first-tier spells require reagents, you could mitigate this by having staves or wands cut reagent use / fizzle chance for one school of magic.

    That would encourage specialization, while not requiring it; it would create a route in the game for using spells without reagents, while keeping a cost for reagent use for players who are not specialized in that school. So a Life Magic mage with a Life Magic-specialized staff (Spirit staff, whatever) could go around casting Healing Touch for free, while a fighter with a sword and shield would have to use up reagents or have a fizzle chance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  7. Ashlynn [Pax]

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    I'll repeat what I said in another thread. Reagents in UO got you far more power per spell. A single energy bolt (two reagents - black pearl and nightshade) would kill most lesser mobs in one hit (wolves, brigands, mongbats, etc). Two greater heal spealls (2x four reagents - garlic, ginseng, mandrake, spiders silk) would heal you entirely.

    The scaling of damage and hitpoints in SotA is totally different. So applying the same rules isn't going to work - you will just make everyone choose to use a weapon which doesn't require any reagents per "hit".
     
  8. crossbowsoda

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    Did the forums already consider the notion that reagents could cut down on the cost for spells, rather than increasing their damage (or perhaps do a bit of both)? Reducing cost seems to take a few steps towards alleviating concerns (such as Ashlynn's). I'm worried about the same thing as her.

    It could even come down to the reagent itself - some reduce cost, others increase damage, this one reduces fizzle, yadda yadda. Hopefully all spells require reagents, period. I'd still play a caster even if they were required and had no real benefit, but maybe that's just me being old-fashioned.

    A flexible reagent system would be cool, too. Spells - retaining their basic effects - would simply require a certain number of reagents rather than specific reagents, and the reagents chosen would alter the spell somewhat.

    Then, it's up to the player to choose which reagents to apply to that spell. If the reagents had built-in mechanisms like I'd mentioned above, I suppose it would cut down the strain during coding (though I'm sure it's still extremely complex, regardless). Players could pre-link favored reagents to their spells, or the spells would come pre-loaded with favored reagents. A Fireball would start off choosing Reagent A + Reagent C out of your bag, but you could change it to Reagent A + Reagent A if there's some immediate benefit.

    Fireball (2 reagents):
    Reagent A + Reagent A : Fireball costs 15% less
    Reagent B + Reagent B: Fireball does 10% more damage
    Reagent B + Reagent A: Fireball does 5% more damage, adds 3% base damage DoT

    Or whatever. *shrug* Meh! Probably too late in the game for that anyway, though. Now I'm just ranting. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  9. Bowen Bloodgood

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    The only problem I'd have with 'reduced cost' is the implication that spells could be cast without reagents at 'greater cost' I'd much rather they simply be affordable but required.
     
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  10. crossbowsoda

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    I'm right with you: I have the same problem with 'reduced anything,' yeah.

    Like I said, I wouldn't mind reagents conferring *zero* benefit while still being required. That may just be me, however. I think that having reagents present is an opportunity that we should explore.

    If the Devs are going to say, "Hey, spells can be cast without reagents. Deal with it." then that's where the reductive stuff comes into play: "Okay, fine -- but can we at least penalize reagentless spells or give benefit to those who choose to use reagents?" etc.

    I think that if the Devs weigh in favor of non-required reagents (which they may) and we approach reagents in a way that makes them just as good (or better) of an option as not using them, then we may have a cool system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  11. Jordizzle

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    I hope that upon release, reagents are required to cast all spells.
     
  12. docdoom77

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    I fervently hope that reagents are NOT required during release. Unless reagents become cheap, plentiful and easy to find, they need to be (in some way or another) optional.

    If they're not going to be cheap and plentiful, but be required, then magic better get a LOT stronger. Like one spell to kill a monster powerful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  13. crossbowsoda

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    I think that upon release, they won't be required for spells... there are so many hints that point in that direction.

    That said, they need to be incentivized for casting because they will definitely be in the game for crafting. My suggestion isn't much different than the story-based attributes reagents already have; this just takes that reasoning a step further.

    They should all have specific mechanical effects derived from themselves, not derived from the spells or recipes which require them. These effects would empower spell-casting in a variety of ways, because it would attach a minor material loss for the gains granted by spells. By comparison, spells cast without reagents would be pretty inefficent when compared to spells cast with them.

    It's a dynamic approach because it allows for much greater flexibility in terms of designing new reagents and new spells. Rare reagents would make spells much more powerful, rather than the spells just *being* powerful. Carrying them would come with some added risk.

    With effects built directly into reagent profiles, the consumption of raw reagents could render some sort of effect on their consumer. Even the non-caster/non-crafter warrior-types could find some use in them (aside from their sale, of course):

    For example, what if Garlic's ability lowers focus cost for spells? Well, why not also have it lower Focus cost for attacks (and give you bad breath)? Could Mandrake Root lower the fizzle rate for spells? Then, why not have it lower miss chance, or increase crit rate when eaten, too? Heck, go crazy: effects could even vary based on the types of spells cast (damage, heal, stat buff, whatever).

    Reagents used to cast could do something like this:

    Standard Fireball: Fireball has 2 optional reagent slots, costs 10 Focus to cast, and does 10 damage or whatever. Add Garlic as a reagent, and it now costs 8 Focus and does 10 damage. Add both Garlic and Sulfurous Ash (filling the two slots), and it costs 8 Focus, does 10 damage, and does a further 6 damage over 2 seconds.

    Standard Earthquake: Earthquake has 1 or 2 required reagents, 3 optional reagent slots, costs 25 Focus, does 40 damage, blah blah blah. You need this-and-that to cast, but adding Garlic chops 5 Focus off cost, adding Mandrake Root lowers fizzle x%, so on and so forth.


    This could create some interesting side effects:

    Maybe we'll see mages-in-training carrying more Mandrake Root than other ingredients, because it lowers the rate of spell failure (which they'll likely be struggling with). Yet, in that same vein, perhaps high-level mages tend to opt for more offensive or specialized reagents, finding most of these for sale from newer players who just can't use them as effectively, and maybe even trading their own Mandrake Root in exchange.

    Maybe younger, newer characters carry more Garlic because it lowers the Focus cost of spells and abilities, or - I don't know - Serpent Scale because eating it increases defenses or resistances somewhat?

    Perhaps Grandmaster Mages, upon becoming true grandmasters, discover a way to add 1 reagent slot to all spells, potentially increasing their power in a dramatic way.


    *shrug*
    Plenty of possibilities.

    I think by building effects directly into the reagents, letting players pre-sort a list of 'preferred ingredients' for casting purposes, setting limits to what can be cast without reagents/which reagents may be used, and by developing new, rare reagents as the game goes on, you probably walk away with not only a pretty great magic system, but a pretty comprehensive set of items that would otherwise be fairly one-dimensional.

    I figure that it's a lot of design work, though. Obviously, this could be done with a system which requireds reagents, too. In any case, this is all wishful thinking and I hope they require reagents but also make reagents useful for non-casters/non-crafters. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  14. majoria70

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    Perhaps if reagents are found on some bodies also, part of the loot table.
     
  15. Barugon

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    Potions also require the investment of ZERO skill points to use.
     
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  16. smack

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    In my previous post, I linked to the comment from Chris that his long term goal was to require reagents, but only have a % chance to consume them.

    I don't know if they're going to be cheap or plentiful, but the reason Chris said he hasn't implemented the requirement yet is that players will need time to gather and stock up on reagents, which they didn't have enough time to do between weekend releases and frequent wipes. And presumably, magic at its highest tiers will be as powerful as you suggest, and as Chris also mentions in his post. All that was during R9 though so we would need an update on this from him.
     
  17. docdoom77

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    I remember. I took part in that discussion. But that was a long time ago and everything is subject to change. We'll see what the future holds, but I was against reagents as a requirement then, and I'm against it now. I don't mind them being required for powerful spells, but low level spells should be reagent free or reagent optional.
     
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  18. crossbowsoda

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    A use-based system could even flex reagent parameters depending on skill level.

    A grandmaster mage wouldn't need reagents for a mid-level spell. They're a flippin' grandmaster! If they wanted a beefed up mid-level spell, however, they'd certainly know how to apply the appropriate reagents to power it up.

    A mage that's not yet a journeyman would probably need the reagents to aid his casting, though. Still learning, after all.
     
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