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Another look at auto attack :-(

Discussion in 'Release 26 Feedback Forum' started by Weins201, Feb 10, 2016.

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  1. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    TY for the change a while back making it more reasonable but we have just taken 2 steps back , , , ,

    What I mean is with the new attack speeds auto attack basically hits 2 - 3 times faster than it did in R25 therefore offsetting the reduction since it is so fast the 1/2ing of the damage is negated.

    Secondarily this has caused the base innate (archery especially) to way outpace the actual skill gains.

    pretty much making it once again that if you are not using auto attack you are just missing ALOT of quick attacks. In archery yeah it eats up arrows - b u t :)
     
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  2. Womby

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    Testing is what we are here for. :)
     
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  3. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    and your point is?
     
  4. Womby

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    My point is that the devs are working to an accelerated schedule that doesn't allow time for exhaustive testing. That is why we sometimes see code that is broken. They rely on us to find and report these things so that they can fix them. The result of this approach is that we are able to help get the game out sooner and within budget.
     
  5. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    ok that is why I brought it up I know they work hard and we are the main testers also if anyone has seen this or not, and their opinions.
     
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  6. Malcipher

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    I have found that yes auto attack was faster and arrow cost was high but the damage was still low. I prefer to use the charge attack not only does the attack speed slower but it seems like the chance to crit is higher and less chance to miss.
    Bows in general are "miss" happy regardless of distance to target, skill with bow or weather you are standing still or moving. Auto attack is fast but, carrying 1500 arrows is down right silly when all you should have to have with you is maybe 300-600 arrows to last a while. I would rather a higher "hit" chance, low non crit damage, and same/higher crit chance.


    I may be going off track and have lost focus but, that is what I have noticed and my personal opinion.
     
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  7. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    Awsome Info, yeah it eats up ALOT of arrows the reduction in damage is / was neede because it was doing as much and somtime more damage than a skilled attack was.

    My problem now is yeah it is doing less damge bt in the end DOT with skilled attacks is back up to being = if not more I am about to check these numbers in a few :)

    Data Coming
     
  8. helm

    helm Avatar

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    Weins have you actually measured this somehow yet? I mean the claim that halving the damage would be negated because of speed increase?

    According to R26 Release instructions;
    My own gut feelings say these to be more or less accurate (in plain DPS sense), though they are just gut feelings, not measured. I'm not even sure how such a small difference could be reliably measured, as there are quite a few hard-to-control variables. I might have a few ideas about it if you're interested.

    That base skills shoot up is quite true, however I think autoattack is not even the biggest culprit; that questionable honor belongs to the practice of awarding skill points to whatever resembling an attack at a distance. In other words, it does not matter if you shoot a 280hp critical or a half-hearted 2hp arrow toss behind your back while running - the skill gains are the same. So if the xp pool is depleting too slowly one can turn autoattack on and run wildly backwards among pack mobs, trying to waste as much arrows as possible :) But one does not really need autoattack even for that rather absurd activity - spamming the 1st mouse button will do a roughly equivalent job.

    So I guess we'd need some data about it :)
    (Edit - Ok so data is upcoming - did not see your previous msg before posting)
     
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  9. Weins201

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    I am not going to compare Charged vs Auto, they have given data for that, My concern is plain old skilled attacks vs auto attack. My contention is it has gone back to auto attack being just as, if not more efficient, than a skills attack.

    From that data you can look at their info and make inferences.

    Data coming :D

    Sorry didn't see you last line either jinx :oops:
     
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  10. Malcipher

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    Can't wait to see those numbers and also the skilled shots seem a little too hindered behind the word "miss" I have all but stopped pulling out my bow because I managed to get better more reliable numbers and kills out of my level 10 swordsmanship with a high crit longsword its weird but I dont miss nearly the amount as I do with the bow
     
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  11. helm

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    @Weins201 sorry it seems misread you a bit. :) Still I keep wondering, how can one actually compare skilled shots and "basic shots" (referring to free and auto attacks)? For instance, Disabling Shot would without a doubt be my lifeline even if it did zero damage, and piercing/blinding/rapid/multi shots all have their individual, highly situational uses. The only directly comparable skilled attack is Aimed Shot, and even that is not really comparable because of the way dmg resistance/avoidance mechanics work.

    I mean, one can't get very far as an archer if one neglects any aspect of the ranged skill tree (base skill, basic shots, skilled shots, innates). If the plain DPS is higher with auto attacks / free attacks than with skilled shots, what does it actually matter? I'm rather firmly of the opinion that the value of most skilled shots does not lie so much in their damage but rather in their strategic value. And that kind of thing is difficult to put into hard numbers.

    Regardless I'm looking forward to seeing your data. :)

    @Malcipher, might I ask your current ranged base skill and dexterity levels? Don't give up :) Archery development curve is rather steep and frustrating, and a big part of that frustration comes from those early misses. On the other hand, few combat-related things in this game are as fun and rewarding as being able to skillfully one-shot-kill a bunch of enemies coming at you :)
     
  12. Weins201

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    @helm
    How do I get this data - I go out and fight somethign and I use only Skilled attacks or I only use Auto Attacks.

    Why does t matter - Easy - if I can kill the same creature using auto attack and do it just as fast as using skilled attacks then why should I ever bother training up any of the actual skills. The same goes for a simple charged attack.

    Now true I have like 30 - 40 in my skilled attacks and 100 in my auto attacks but I have NOT done any specific training in either skilled or Auto except for the last two level of auto attack, 98 - 100. They have been trained side by side, and the basic ranged skill is 3 time higher already. So like I said since the Auto Attack Skill is now gaining exponentially faster than the other skills and if it is hitting 2 - 3 times faster, we are right back to not having any reason to bother training a skill.

    As for you thinking that they require a certain circumstance to make a skilled shot viable, I cannot see that at all. Skilled shots should just do more damage but different methods of accomplishing that. And the resist factors you are saying have an affect have the same affect weather a Skilled shot or Auto Attack, yes except for the the ones that ignore certain defenses, but that is why you train a skill. If you are using auto attack and killing the creature, there is no need for a skilled shot at all.

    Again I have just started collecting data I only have killed my target once, I will do it 3 times in each mode and I will count hits, misses, total dmg, avg dmg and present what I find. Just like I did before.

    And in the end if they are = or Auto attack is better then . . . . . Wait for the data ill show ya, if I am right or wrong.
     
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  13. Malcipher

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    I am currently at 92 archery, I rarely get discouraged and even kess when its a game that is in development but the shear number of times where I have seen my guild (all 4 of us lol) fight anything there are just a few tooooo many times where I see miss the entire fight and other times where I hit the "Crit-pot" and completely decimate something then its back to nominal numbers of 6-20ish damage a shot, but to get to the point I'm not giving up on it I chose to test it this release and I will finish my test if it.

    That said I am branching in to swordmanship to offset the ridiculous amount of arrows i have to carry with me
     
  14. Mystic

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    Another issue I've seen with auto-attack is that it doesn't actually start attacking an enemy I have highlighted until I either trigger an ability or double click an enemy continuously. Direction is also a bit off because if a monster is a few degrees off my centre, I need to turn and face them to attack which is hard because there doesn't seem to be a good way to turn in place.
     
  15. Solstar

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    I right mouse button turn in melee unless it's behind me, then I use "S".
     
  16. Beaumaris

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    Good topic. Hopefully in the next design update the team covers the thinking of how they are balancing the attack speed * weapon damage = DPS equation.
     
  17. Mysticvermin

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    I was going to give the same advice for camera turning. ;)

    I have yet to try out archery. Is there actually different attack speeds for that? For swords my testing found that dagger free attacks are more or less the same speed as those from a two-handed sword. Sans shield, I'm currently trying to figure out why I would ever not use a two-hander. Testing also indicated that the damage from free attacks are not increased by swords skill. From what I'm reading here it seems that archery does increase the normal damage of bow shots. Hmmm, interesting.
     
  18. Weins201

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    Auto attack is "on" if your names is yellow, if you names is white you are not in auto attack mode. If you name is yellow and you click a target over and over sometime you actually turn auto attack off as that is one of the ways to use free attack.

    When your name is yellow you need to get in range and LOS of your target sometimes that is, like you said, sometimes just turning around. One of the MAJOR problems with this and Mele is how close oyu need to be, We have fought trolls and been under the kilt but not in range, somtime even get behind the troll before name goes red and you start swinging. Bad targeting system or a little borked ATM.

    As for turning in place, the "Q/E" keys spin you around. if you are mouse walking and having problems I would consider using the "A,S,W,D,Q,E" method of movement.
     
  19. Malcipher

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    I personally don't have the turning problem but the auto attack problem I do.

    I use "tab targeting" where you cycle through targets using the tab key, ok in "normal" use of a tab keying you will also "initiate" attack on that target if you are in combat, weapons out and ready. If I'm in auto-attack this does not happen and targeting a mob is problematic because not only does the mob need to be highlighted you have to double click on that mob afterwards to start those arrows flying.
     
  20. helm

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    I think it is by design to prevent accidentally attacking/aggravating the wrong target by mistake. If the Toggle Attack key (by default the 'T' key) does not start the attack then it is likely some kind of LOS problem (can tell by the color of your avatar name).

    Unfortunately you are quite right, there is no good or at least easy solution to the turning problems - these are a little bit of an issue also with free attacks, although nowhere as much as with auto attacks. Some discussion about it inside the spoiler as it's slightly off topic.
    The Q-E keys are certainly no replacement to proper mouselook turning (comparison: full 360 degree turn with QE keys about 7 seconds, the same 360 degree turn with mouselook less than a second). Mouselook is actually just perfect for turning in place, though it does suffer from other issues like inability to use the glyphs with the mouse when mouselook is activated, and also inability to actually move with just the mouse efficiently (which includes moving backwards, and tumbling). With free attack mouselook moving is turned off completely (though it's possible to map the W and S keys to some mouse extra buttons).

    I have more or less solved the moving/turning issue as follows:

    • During battles I use the WASD keys with mouselook for moving (occasionally also "spice up" the turnings by using the QE keys too but never in tight spots)
    • In order to solve the glyph problem I remapped the keyboard so that the lower row keys Z,X,C,V,B replace the default 1,2,3,4,5 mappings.
    • The freed 1-5 keys are in turn used in place of existing 6,7,8,9,0 mappings, which are completely discarded as useless -- one can not really reach them with one hand while keeping the fingers on the WASD keys (which is crucial in battle, at least for us ranged folks).
    • Obviously one needs to find some alternative mapping for existing ZXCVB mappings, but none of them is time critical so they can just be put under some key or key combination. For example, one could perhaps use the freed 6,7,8,9,0 keys, or do some multibutton mouse key mapping.
      • A good trick to free up some keys is to put some default non-time-critical mappings under CTRL-combination key. So for example, 'F' would become 'CTRL-F'. Very easy to remember, takes only a few moments to get used to.
    • Discard keys are remapped accordingly (using CTRL+[ZXCVB 12345]) just as they are now
    This way it actually quite easy (about 15 minutes of practice) to train your muscle memory so that you can hit all the glyph keys while moving with the WASD keys, and also combine them without much thinking about it or looking at the keyboard. Discarding glyphs can also be done without thinking, though it is mostly not possible while moving -- but then again it was even more difficult with the default key mappings (with auto attack discarding while moving might be a tad easier, but I really cannot say because I never use auto attack any more).
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
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