Anyone for Oculus?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andrew Silverston, Mar 9, 2016.

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  1. Andrew Silverston

    Andrew Silverston Avatar

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    VorpX allows a lot of games to play through VR like Oculus Rift. Anyone even thought about playing SotA through OR? Anyone pre-ordered OR maybe? It appears that there are gamers with money here, so I thought I'd ask without little children getting all upset on forums and stuff... lol.
     
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  2. licemeat

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    Vorpx doesn't have a 3d reconstruction for Shroud. So you can play it, but it's just a big flat 2D screen. You can use the HMD to look around in 1st person view... it's not all that great. I used Tridef 3d for the DK1 and got a 3d view a couple of years ago. They are blurry, but here are some pics....
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. Katrina Bekers

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    I own a DK2, and I wouldn't buy a CV1 even if it was $50, let alone 800 EUR. I'll wait for my dutch friend to give me her first impressions of the Vive she bought in the first 10 minutes of the pre-order window.

    VR isn't just about splitting the screen into two offset viewports. The UI needs to be rethought accordingly, especially considering resolution and juddering.
     
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  4. HoustonDragon

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  5. Duke William of Serenite

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    I am waiting to see what Sony does with their VR
     
  6. Andrew Silverston

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    Yeah, if I still see pixels in CV1, its going back of course. Both OR and VIVE though have in general same resolution, but OR uses some tech to upscale the image to make the pixels stand out less. Plus VIVE is more of a "walk in the room" VR, I prefer OR, since I'll most likely be using it only for a few games, like Star Citizen, after I play with it enough and experiment with other cheap stuff available from STEAM. Also VIVE is even more expensive, but it has controllers, which OR owners will have to buy separately later this year, on next year.

    Not fun that Shroud can't be played on VR with full 3D... Maybe I'll try Trydef 3D with CV1 this April, see if I like how Shroud plays on VR.
     
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  7. Quenton

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    Why not?
     
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  8. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    Then don't throw away the cardboard CV1 box. :p

    I didn't try any headset with resolution higher than 1920x1080@75, so I can't comment on CV1 and Vive's specs (2160x1200@90).

    But still, pixels RIGHT in front of you aren't a problem. It's the lens aberration at the borders of your field of view that bother me - and the crazy software correction taxing GPU+CPU to correct that.
    I threatened to dump my thoughts in the other thread, but this question forces me to answer here. Mostly copying from what I already wrote in with @mass :

    I will wait for Steam Vive, because the buyout of Oculus VR on behalf of Facebook (and thus, by proxy acquisition, Microsoft), meant that:

    - They shamelessly dropped support for Linux and Mac, pushing both back to "planned". Since I use Linux, having a Windows-only VR headset is totally useless to me. I can still use my DK2 with SDK 0.6.x (latest with Linux support). Vive will support Linux (aka SteamOS) much better. As a proof of this non-Windows hostility (clearly pushed by the new indirect Redmond owners), see the recent attacks on Mac/Apple by Luckey: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...to-mac-if-apple-ever-release-a-good-computer/

    - They're moving too close to XBox and DirectX. Nobody should be surprised that while HTC bundles two extremely cool haptic controllers, Oculus gives you... An XBox joypad! It means no more promise of multiplatform in console field - that once was the goal of the kickstarter project, with an open SDK. And further tying development to a single target ecosystem.

    - The direction changed from mostly-games (quips my interest) to mostly-social (not so much). Well, it's Zuckerberg's hand at work, I guess: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathlee...-to-make-virtual-reality-social/#133900f79590 - something Gaben didn't even mention. Valve is a GAMING company. Facebook is not.

    - Valve seems much more interested in a PC Master Race tool to enable an exciting new age of immersive titles, compared to Microsoft/Facebook. They also have a contractual power with PC Games companies (thanks to Steam) that Facebook simply lacks, in the actual arena.

    For these - and other - reasons, I won't be purchasing the Consumer version of Oculus anytime soon. In my opinion this wave of VR attempts (not the first, maybe just the most successfull so far) may remain in a niche of early geek adopters.

    Or become the Real Next Thing, but if and only if:

    - There's a way for headset wearers to NATIVELY see the world around them. A webcam embedded in the visor, a gadget, a dongle, whatever that, at the flip of a simple button replaces or superimposes the "real world view" to the displayed scene. So far, once you wear the headset and the earphones, you're basically buried alive in a world of detachment from reality. It's TOO detached. Playing with other human beings near you it's a very, VERY awkward situation, and may undermine the success of the entire VR market. (Note: since I wrote this, Vive has been announced sporting a forward-facing embedded webcam.)

    - The many technical limits are solved. Especially the inordinate need for raw performance, and the inherent problems of a "too-close" view, with massive lens aberrations required for a mapping of a flat surface (the OLED display) onto a spherical lens at a very, very close distance. Twin curved OLEDs may go a long way - but what about production costs? For a pleasant, crisp experience, I'd say that at least 2560x1440@90 are the absolute minimum. 3840x2160@144 (aka hiscan 4K) will be the goal, one day, but as of today no cable has enough bandwidth for that, not even Display Port or (for Mac) Thunderbolt. It's a weird situation when the weak link of the chain is the data protocol between the producer (a quad-SLI of Titans can push those pixels and the INSANE post-production required to correct aberrations), and consumer (8K displays are on their way).

    - The prices come crashing down HARD. And I mean rock bottom, no more than 2-300$ for a complete headset. The outrageous price of the Oculus (around 800 EUR, taxes and shipping included) is, well, uncommentable. Vive's at 1000EUR is only marginally better, and just because it includes a TON more hardware than the Rift.

    - The weight and cumbersomeness (sp?) of headsets must be cut at least in half. Really. I once played Elite Dangerous for three hours straight with the DK2 and my Ozone Rage headphones. It was one of the most immersive and exciting experiences I ever had since Combat on Atari VCS in 1979. But had also neck ache for a week, after that. It wasn't as bad on my (aging) eyes as it was with my spine.

    I'm naturally optimist on anything technology based, but this technology is NOT mature today.

    If I was on the fence, I'd wait at least the second generation.
     
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  9. helm

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    For those interested, a nice clearly written article explaining in simple(?) terms most of the technical-perceptual issues related to HMDs. Short version: we're still a long long way from home.

    I think Thunderbolt 3 (which, just to be clear, is an Intel developed tech) would come pretty close, though not exactly sure about even hiscan 4K being enough as that absolute minimum (see above article re the framerate considerations).
     
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  10. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    TB3/USB-C may be a good way, but still not really there, unfortunately.

    I did some math and at the moment the raw specs paint a gloomy picture.

    I normalize everything to the "pixel per second" raw output, so to at least compare apples with apples - and Mpps as rounding figures. Using a fixed width font so that numbers align neatly.
    Code:
    FullHD standard -- 124 Mpps
    
      124'416'000 = 1920 * 1080 * 60
    
    My DK2 -- 155 Mpps
    
      155'520'000 = 1920 * 1080 * 75
    
    Oculus Rift CV1 and HTC Vive -- 233 Mpps
    
      233'280'000 = 2160 * 1200 * 90
    
    My Eizo FS3237 std 4K monitor -- 497 Mpps
    
      497'664'000 = 3840 * 2160 * 60
    
    Thunderbolt 3/USB-C specs -- 1061 Mpps
    
    1'061'683'200 = 4096 * 2160 * 60 * 2
    
    Hiscan 4K -- 1194 Mpps
    
    1'194'393'600 = 3840 * 2160 * 144
    
    So, with today's tech we're around 1/5th into what I'd say it's the current goal, and TB3 would be (barely) unable to carry enough signal for hiscan 4K.

    I'm sure it'll be just a matter of time before we can push smoothly and reliably so many pixels. But today, we're still in the "play with a bucket nearby" phase.
     
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  11. Krohon

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    Great post! I didn't have see this issue previously, I somewhat assumed a room and a closed door. But then, who will rescue me after accidentally hitting my head while playing? (sure it will happens some day)
     
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  12. Krohon

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    While it seems a great article, it is almost 3 years old. Maybe we are already close to home now.
     
  13. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    That's one of my worst fears: the immersiveness of VR becomes isolation; its great entertainment potential becomes alienation; that a terrific technology may become a terribly dorky niche for forever-alone's.

    When I let friends try the Rift, the unanymous response was "whoa", while at the same time being totally oblivious of the jokes the others in the room were making at the "guinea pig". Playing in a social environment would be tragic if the social part is on YOUR side of the headset. You can't play in presence of others, that's mostly a given. So, even the emergency situation you thought of may become ugly pretty fast.

    Vive integrating a webcam is great news - and another reason why I think HTC got it right, learning from the mistakes of its pioneer competitor. For one, the ability to see the keyboard and where the f is the mouse is absolutely critical. With the DK2 you have to play the "blind man with guiding dog" game if by chance you pull your fingers off the K+M (or controller), because you do not see anything at all once you wear the visor. It's like wearing perfectly enveloping earphones and then being unable to listen what others are trying to say to you, or the phone ringing!

    In late april, at EVE Fanfest, I'll probably test the CV1 and Morpheus (again), and I'll be able to see if there's some progress on that front.

    Immersion is good and all. But immersion breaking can be a lifesaver here.
    I fear not. The optics and general concepts are still valid, and while some ideas floated around, we're very far from the 1kHz suggested in that article.
     
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  14. helm

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    That article discusses mostly optical perception related phenomenons like judder and persistence and some of the underlying neurological factors like visual suppression during eye movements (so-called saccadic masking), and the relevance of such things when trying to create head mounted displays.

    Of course, technological progress is not irrelevant, and research has already come up with some very clever ways to work around some of the peculiarities of human perception, but some of the issues are very hard to solve with either cleverness or brute force. The next ten years will no doubt see continual technical improvements, and also some necessary paradigm shifts. It's good to also remember that solving one issue will often bring up new issues to solve. For instance, solving the extremely important issue of isolation will need (unless one is using some kind of semi-transparent HMD) virtually perfect head tracking, excellent eye tracking (and solving of eye focusing related issues) and insane amount of pixel moving horsepower, along with things mentioned in the article. It also brings forth a slew of other problems still waiting to be solved, including issues related to privacy, safety and neuroergonomics. Doing it all wirelessly will bring its own set of problems. Many of these things will undoubtedly be solved in good time, but I personally wouldn't be holding my breath, at least for another five years or so.
     
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  15. smack

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    I don't care for Luckey's lack of media savvy, but on a technical level he's absolutely right. They're setting the baseline for visual fidelity that all the devs can target. So the price of early adoption is a high one but I'm glad that he's also setting the bar high. The current gen Mac GPUs simply don't cut it for high end 3D gaming, especially those on MBPs which I've used for the last decade, in addition to my Mac Pro with its dual GPUs (and my 4k display!). Would I want the bar lowered simply so I can use my CV1 with my MBP or Mac Pro? Heck no. Because I know an upcoming hardware refresh will eventually meet that bar and all will be good again. Until then, I'm going to enjoy the visual fidelity on my high end gaming PC.

    I'd go farther and say 4k per eye @ 144hz would be my next-gen baseline. And by the time panels like that are readily available in volume along with GPUs that can push the high end 3D visual fidelity at that rate, there will be a new cable spec to support it. In the meantime, I can see interim steps to get there, so instead of 3840 x 2160 @ 144, it may be 120 which is within TB3/USB-C spec.

    Occulus backed off from a mobile experience (as in, moving around the room) and it was a design decision to do so. They've since decided to market this as a sit down experience. Since Vive is using the ability to move as a key feature, it required a front-mounted camera. A sit down experience does not. Oh, but the controllers, you say...yes, that's exactly why they packaged a gamepad. It's again another baseline that all devs can target as the input interface. Granted, they can still target keyboard and mouse, but because of the design decision, they are guaranteed an alternate means that is more usable. I perfectly understand why Occulus went down this route. They are willing to wait for their tech and design to evolve from purely sit down to limited movement or entirely mobile but also keep their price down and be first to market. If their Touch controllers were ready sooner, I'm sure the situation would be different. Vive was simply more ready with their tech and ability to do so.

    In any case, I'm looking forward to my CV1 and Vive. And I look forward to CV2, Vive2 and what's to come.
     
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  16. Katrina Bekers

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    Maybe for Mac, but certainly not for Linux - my main interest. If he's into technical excellence, he wouldn't snuff at the platform that makes 98% of top500.org. If he's into broad mainstream acceptance, he wouldn't set the bar *that* high - only for Valve to steal his steam (pun intended) from his own engine.

    It only shows how deep he's in Redmond's pockets nowadays. And in the VR-as-videochat vision of his new owner Zuckerberg.

    It was a deep disappointment, but nowhere near surprising, after four decades of Embrace-Extend-Extinguish.
    Something like that, yes, remembering that every eye needs a square-ish viewport (actually, the best would be a rounded one), not a 16:9 one. But yes, let's reason on terms of total pixels, regardless of WxH ratio.
    I don't agree. At all.

    Vive can be used even sitting, nobody forces you to stand or walk around. OR was simply unable to provide a 3D-aware controller and just borrowed the one produced by their new overlords. It failed - badly - the time to market, even if it started a LOT earlier.

    When I have to type something and I'm wearing the DK2 (which has the same "sit down" setup as CV1), I need to pull the headset up a bit, only to be able to find the F-J keys. It has nothing to do with sitting down or moving around. It has everything to do with user feedback - the requests for such technology in OR forums I witnessed were abundant and passionate - something you must be extra careful to tend to, in such a new, complex HMI challenge.

    The front-mounted camera is needed anyway because you can't simply become totally oblivious of your own real environment. It's just braindead wrong to render the user basically blind to everything. And don't think only the game/world controllers, please! You never take a sip of a beverage? Light up a cig? Check your phone that just blipped a Whatsapp message? Look at your clock to see how late in the night it is? Check what your husband/wife/mom/dad/kid want since they tapped on your shoulder? C'mon, not putting a way to unblind yourself was an incredibly stupid move - or incredibly wise on HTC's part, if you prefer. Of course the Vive has a more stringent need for it, if it lets you roam around a 5m x 5m area. But the added cost/weight of such a tiny addition is a price everyone in their right mind should be ready to pay. Leap Motion was a nudge in the very right direction.

    They lost the TTM race. They fumbled badly the environment awareness thingie. They moved their goalpost from games to social networks. They dropped Linux.

    They won't see a single euro from me anymore.
     
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  17. helm

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    I have to say I concur. Who would have thought that the Redmond cluelessness train is still taking passengers in this time and age. Well, bon voyage.
     
  18. smack

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    Your 98% is not the demographics Occulus is targeting for CV1 / first gen / early adopters. Look at the Steam hardware survey for that answer. Linux is less than 1%, even less than Mac. He's supporting Linux, just not the priority out the gate. And I think this is where you misunderstand their strategy or have different expectations about it. They aren't going after the mainstream for their first product. They're initially going after the gamers and prioritizing based on those segments. So if you're in the 1% Linux crowd, you'll eventually get it.

    Like I said, Vive beat them to the market for having an all-room experience, but that is an even smaller market. It's the whole Kinect thing all over again. OR decided to forgo that until the next round and will see how the early adopters and devs react to Vive. And in case you weren't aware, they bought Carbon Design, the company that designed and made the controller for Xbox 360. They didn't need to borrow from their overlords, they likely leveraged this team as far as input experiences go.

    Again, this is where you're expecting games that require the use of keyboard and mouse. They are advocating gamepads as the de facto input interface for the OR experience. Sure, Vive has a camera and their primary input experience are their controllers. Even they aren't advocating keyboard/mouse. One of the design decisions regarding VR (not AR or hybrid) is to answer the question: can you still provide presence and an immersive experience if you break the fourth wall and allow the user to see the real world, both in terms of the camera or in-VR messaging from external sources? It's not as black and white as you think, the design complexities are a lot harder than that. You may expect a different experience but they've decided not to go down that path for pure VR. That's not to say they're ignoring AR or hybrid experiences, but that's much further down the road. Abrash is right on a lot of these things. Maybe you disagree and that's fine.

    I don't see them moving the goalpost from games to social networks at all. That may be their end game, but it's definitely not what they're doing with CV1 or perhaps even CV2. They've talked about likening the mainstream strategy with the mobile smartphone adoption rates. It's going to take time, the price has to come down on first gen computer specs, be it PC or Mac or whatever, as well as the price of the headset itself. So perhaps in 10-15 years, sure, you'll use FB in VR.

    And sure, you keep harping on Linux, but as far as I'm aware, they haven't dropped it. You simply are part of the extremely small market that's second priority.
     
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  19. Katrina Bekers

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    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathlee...-to-make-virtual-reality-social/#743f4e857959
    Believe what you want, my friend. Statements and facts prove you wrong.

    Oh, and for all intents and purposes, they dropped Mac and Linux. There hasn't been a single line of code added to the SDK after 0.5.0.1, i.e. 0.6, 0.7, 0.8 and 1.0. Differently from what they said during kickstarter, they're going single platform (guess which?) for the foreseable future.

    Vive has SteamOS support from day 0. I just came from a SteamVR session (I have a category in my Steam right now, with Decesnt: Underground in it), and guess on which OS? Oh, and while at it: with a Steam Controller, built from the ground up to give you tactile feedback. Can you imagine why?

    I know where my money will go.
     
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  20. smack

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    I'm not denying that they want it to be a social platform, but it has a long way to get there in regards to headsets. My arguments above are purely about CV1 strategy. Facebook's 1 billion users aren't simply all going to use CV1 and aren't even ready to do from all perspectives, be it tech, usability, content, etc, and don't forget cost. He can't force headset adoption and cause it to go faster given the hurdles presented. It took the first smartphones a year to reach a million users, if that. It took another 10 years to get to a billion users. Dedicated headsets are likely going to have a much flatter curve than that.

    Having said that, mobile device-enabled VR (cardboards, Gear VR, etc) is where you will see the social experience targeted first. They will try to solve the right problem on the right device before merging or any crossover. They are targeting gamers who want to pay the price of early adoption for CV1. All others can try the mobile device enabled experience. And I'm not trying to convince you to get an OR. I just think your arguments are misdirected.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
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