Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

Breaking immersion

Discussion in 'Release 32 Feedback Forum' started by Abydos, Jul 28, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Abydos

    Abydos Avatar

    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    3,862
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Québec, CAN
    How PvP Stats Board is a Immersion Breaker !


    Come On Plz ! Remove tha .....
     
    Beaumaris and Time Lord like this.
  2. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Avatar

    Messages:
    1,961
    Likes Received:
    3,655
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Storm's Reach
    Instead of removing it, the language could be reworked to represent the champions of avatar competition fighting, or something.
     
    Time Lord, Kaisa and Abydos like this.
  3. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

    Messages:
    2,793
    Likes Received:
    7,826
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Kópavogur, Iceland
    You can't turn it off with keypad 0? I can.
     
    Solazur, Leelu and Time Lord like this.
  4. Quenton

    Quenton Avatar

    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    979
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Old Britannia
    On the topic of "breaking immersion", but not the pvp board, the first thing that really threw me was the new tutorial tooltips, surprisingly. The old ones didn't have the same effect.

    I think it's because there is a hell of a lot to read between the Isle of Storms and the end of the bridge on Solace Bridge Massacre, and you have to pay careful attention to it, because you no longer click close when you're done reading the tip - once it vanishes, you've missed it. I knew most of the stuff I was reading, too (but not all - the targeting stuff is still newish to me) - I can only imagine how it would be for newbies.

    This is going offtopic for more related feedback, but the key to press should be a different colour so that it stands out, and there should be a way to check back what those tutorial tips said, maybe in the journal. Also, by far and away, it should be made far more obvious and frequently so that TAB will switch you between mouselook and cursor, because I got stuck in the wrong mode many times, and nothing was reminding me what the correct key was. If I was new, I'd be very stuck and very frustrated - I was lucky in that I just knew from previous releases.
     
  5. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

    Messages:
    2,488
    Likes Received:
    12,987
    Trophy Points:
    190
    I'm curious (as the resident writer/immersion guy) how a scoreboard in a competive zone breaks immersion more than avatars suddenly killing one another....?
     
    Lord Barugon, Solazur, helm and 6 others like this.
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    It does appear in the chat window. So if you miss it you can still look there.
     
    Leelu and Time Lord like this.
  7. Quenton

    Quenton Avatar

    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    979
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Old Britannia
    Oh wow - for the whole tutorial, I didn't notice it appearing there.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  8. Abydos

    Abydos Avatar

    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    3,862
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Québec, CAN
    We do not play to Counter Strike. In RPG, PvP is not only a competition LoL.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS and Time Lord like this.
  9. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,884
    Likes Received:
    11,033
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Any chance you could explain what you mean by your retort above ?
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  10. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    @Lum,

    That's a whole other issue entirely, isn't it? One of the reasons I'm keeping out of PvP for now is that it isn't about much other than randomly ganking other players.

    But knowing a lot of PvPers here in the community, many are also role-players who like to imagine PvP in terms of the game world; whether that means they're cuthroats, or bounty hunters, or paladins, or guilds with real interests and real warfare. Not as a kind of competitive event, like a duel set up in someone's basement. They feel that a scoreboard trivializes that. @FrostII, that's basically what @Abydos is saying.
     
    Solazur, evillego6, Gix and 3 others like this.
  11. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    5,884
    Likes Received:
    11,033
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Ok then, fair enough - can it not be turned off with a key ?
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  12. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    @FrostII,

    Perhaps in the future its something though that should be intentionally turned on by players, though. It seems more appropriate for a kind of group duel event that would be happening in private than PvP events happening out in the world. That's just my view.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS, helm and Time Lord like this.
  13. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    ~Consider the Elements~
    Direction always points to objective. A single objective has only one direction. It's our objective that needs a variety of directions.
    [​IMG]
    Until our directions are found, our compass will always spin going nowhere.
    We know our objectives are coming, but what are their best forms?

    ~The Champion and the Ganker~
    [​IMG]
    Currently our PvP stats board is our world championships, yet as with that single direction I mentioned above, it's a championship that never ends, meaning there is no "conclusion" or prize to be had, because it has no seasons. There are no resets or directions other than the ganking. Ganking has no end and also no, "there can be only one" moment. There is no adjustment in winning when time is considered. The amount of time any player could play is never even, thus the finest fighter will not likely be found on the top, only the fighter that has the most time available for the ganking.

    The gankers have game mechanic support, as it should be, through the PvP Stats Board, yet the champion seeker has yet to have any other direction because no other objectives have a game supported mechanic. We could say that our player made championship provide the offset, yet they are not of a faction ground gaining quality as that of the ganker PvP stat board. PvP ganking will become a team dominated sport, with the winning team's names reaching among the top of our PvP stats board. We can't yet say that our player made championships can fulfill such a team sport objective for our champion seekers.

    A coveted objective for a "team of champions" is different than our coveted place of the ganker and we must find such a place where guilds and champions can have objectives.

    This offers no solutions, yet I hope it presents the need for at least one other direction than the single direction we have.
    They both are similar, but different, therefore providing contrast and balance within our two parts of PvP.
    PvP is not a single subject and has always been that way, "it's the blanket term PvP where we are failing".
    It's 2 things, that have and share similarities.

    We need 2 different team objectives, one for the ganker (which we have) and one for the champion seeker (which we don't have "yet").
    [​IMG]
    ~Time Lord~
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
    Solazur and KuBaTRiZeS like this.
  14. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

    Messages:
    2,793
    Likes Received:
    7,826
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Kópavogur, Iceland
    I fail to see how an entire story based on Earth people being summoned into New Britannia to fulfill the Dirae Prophecy (i.e. "the game world") would possibly include even the slightest glint of reason why they should fight each other to death, ever.

    But I'm pretty sure it's just my shortcoming.

    "Hey, human person from across the rift, come here and help us with Forsaken Virtues after the Cataclysm, bla bla" - Oracle, most likely
    "Sure thing, robot fella, here I come!" - any Random H. Avatar
    "AAARGH, DIE N00B, YOUR MOTHER <insert CoD joke here>" - another Random J. Avatar upon sight of the first one

    If something *IS* immersion breaking at all in this game, is how PVP is even conceived.

    Besides catering to UO psychos long time mass murder aficionados, I mean.
     
    Solazur, Gix, Leelu and 2 others like this.
  15. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    That's tossing us a softball for us to hit. :)

    First, there was no scoreboard in the battles in The Sword of Midras story. Where did this one come from? Second, what Avatar on a path of virtue ever needed a scoreboard? Does that fit in the lore otherwise? Third, the Avatar doesn't see virtue points, why does he see points for killing others? Are killing points more important to the game? Fourth, if the Oracle turns on/off PVP why is it not keeping score vs a separate scoreboard? Fifth, is that what PVP is supposed to be about in game? A keep-score sporting metagame? Any tie to lore? Sixth, are Avatars killing one another or are they testing their courage and valor! Etc. etc. fun stuff.

    Ultimately it's a question of what is the intended point of view that you, as the designers, are aiming us toward? Do you design intending for us to be the Avatar experiencing combat on the field? Or are we meant to be watching our avatar as they do the dirty work on-screen like it's Monday night football? Why is the scoreboard the right prop for the desired scenario? Of course immersive is subjective and all scenarios are right. But being able to permanently toggle the scoreboard off would be great for those who want to narrow their experience.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
    Gix likes this.
  16. Balec Fares deCani

    Balec Fares deCani Avatar

    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4,015
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    People harvesting resources in the shardfall have the luxury of a billboard warning them if anyone (and who) has entered the scene...which substantially changes the necessity of looking-over-your-shoulder constantly that would otherwise have to be in place.

    On the other hand this type of scoreboard is essential for tracking what's going on in larger scale games.

    A mix of both options could be nice.
     
    Gix likes this.
  17. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I thought it was placeholder UI. Reading the following comment is discouraging:
    Because the Oracle allows it and/or can't protect avatars in certain locations. Is the Oracle keeping tabs on kill count? Shouldn't we be seeing Watchers roaming around scanning us while we're fighting? Shouldn't we go to a miniature shrine to get updated on that kind of info?

    The part that gets to me is that "avatars suddenly killing one another" is somehow immersion breaking to you... as if that would justify an arcade-style scoreboard in an RPG.

    You're the writer, you tell us!
     
    evillego6 likes this.
  18. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    6,771
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Immortal cats are immersion breaking.
     
  19. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

    Messages:
    1,506
    Likes Received:
    3,395
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Virtues are forsaken and nobody is sure if avatars come to destroy the world or to save it. We are all THE avatar. I suppose that means we will all have the choice to destroy the world or to save it. Usually, is in the scope of those who wants to destroy the world to destroy the ones who wants to save it as well. It's the lack of reasons to choose between the others, or the lack of sides to choose and fight what makes SotA PVP a bit dull and easy to trivialize.

    Without a reason to fight, PVP is nothing better than the scenario Katrina offers.
     
    Katrina Bekers likes this.
  20. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Yea, that's what I meant when I said its a whole other issue...

    But I don't know if the problem is that the game is catering to the UO crowd. Because in order for PvP to have some meaning in the game beyond just random mass murder, its necessary for there to be some stake over fights -- that the outcomes of fights affect the rest of the world. It might might mean rare or unique resources at stake at Shardfalls, or control over control points, where guilds might charge a toll for people to pass through without a fight. Or it might mean the contraband quests that were talked about in Kickstarter, where you could get an important artifact but put a bounty on yourself. All those things would set up actual conflicts between that involve role-playing.

    But this is what a lot of UO people have been asking for... its a lot of PvEers that are against it. Also, the UO people said they'd welcome some sort of justice system. Short of that, yea, you're making it about people killing each other for no good reason, which just makes PvP zones random gank zones.
     
    KuBaTRiZeS and Katrina Bekers like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.