Changes to archery

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Krovakin, Mar 25, 2021.

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  1. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    The only nerf to Bard as of right now is that Savage Sonata gives less Crit Damage, which it gave way too much anyways.

    Bard songs for now are a must IMO, they are so strong, and if you can dynamically stack them, you can get VERY strong buffs. For anyone using physical damage, Savage Sonata is very strong. Then you have Melody of Mending, which currently heals me for 76/tick, for anyone running out of focus or using Shield of Air, Rapsody of Recovery is once again super strong. After that, the Slow song is an ice field that follows you, the mesmerize song just stops anything you aren't damaging right in its tracks, and the Anthem of Alacrity is just great for any attack speed/ dex based builds.

    Add Bard songs to your deck, you won't regret it.

    Ohh and the next nerf will reduce songs effectiveness by 50% if you don't have an instrument out (if they can some day figure out the tech :p), when that happens, dedicated bards will become super useful for groups, but these songs will remain powerful even without the instrument out!
     
  2. Barugon

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    If you have Voice Training (a 20x skill) at 100 then bard skills are 75% of what they currently are without an instrument.

    I really think he should forget the extra skill and apply the 50% reduction to the bonus that you get from charging skills. This would leave benefit from the bard skills the same for single charge use but cut down dramatically on the power you get for charging.
     
  3. Vero

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    You are very sexy aswel sir. (same build, me in video)


    Yes nerf fire i advocate aswel
     
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  4. Vero

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    Now in this discussion on changes to archery a fair amount of (much needed) firemagic nerf-talk aswel.

    But why is no ranged player showing their Spindle attu video? Or not showing the solo Dragon room run?
    We know a few are running said builds. (yes archers can solo attunuate in under 20min aswel) just like firemages can

    It is firemagic needing nerfs yes, for sure! hey im afiremage and i would totally shoot down stacking all the resist debuffs and limit ticks. But lots of builds go bananas with gear and good deck.

    I love it all,
    unspecced firemage: self attunuate in 20min still!
    unspecced (no air/tac) ranged: shoot dragons down in 10seconds still!

    Both builds need more nerf still
    Allot
     
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  5. Superbitsandbob

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    I wonder, ultimately, what anyone is hoping any nerfs lead to. Why is there balance? Is it because you think that it will make the game more social? Is it because you just don't want others doing stuff you can't?

    This game from the off said there you go, no limits, do what you want. Many people at the time thought this was a bad idea as how do you balance content when there are no real caps? You can't it seems.

    Nerfing builds so that they suddenly can't solo what they can at the moment is only going to damage the game at this point. Balancing is not suddenly going to make the game more popular in the MMO community. In fact it might make it less so as those people who were playing the game at the top end solo may just now stop playing as they can't do the one thing they found left to challenge themselves with. Nerfing them is not suddenly going to want them to go out and be social grouping animals. If enough people are not grouping up to slay dragons at this point then I don't see how this suddenly helps.

    Many moons ago maybe these balance changes might have had an effect but now it seems redundant as what is the end goal? It feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face at this point. In a game with a larger population with competitive end game PvE guilds raiding for great loot up for grabs I could understand it. Not here though.
     
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  6. FBohler

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    You must be confusing me for other person. I don't remember asking the game to be easy, or saying anything about stop playing the game.
     
  7. Vero

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    I think balancing in this game will be a very hard challenge. It's not only the skills or gear enabling us to 'do certain things'.

    Remember when we 'Pugilism fist only' killed Torc Dawl? (that video of Rada is here somewhere) that was more playerskill then gear/skillvl.
    Translate that into modern sota age with allot of 'build complementing' skills (example barding) and one has a absolute endgame shredder where gear/skill lvls is only one part of the package

    Nerf fire: we take next best thing which 'self attunuates'/aoe stuff down fast
    Nerf ranged more: We tweak build to squeeze out enough dmg again. we always want to get stronger and we do with all powercreepy things being thrown at us over time
    Nerf all: we probably still kill stuff because of mob AI and recognizing mob patters/behaviors and act on that

    I would love if we could make our 'rolls' in pve totally different than the rolls in pvp and don't have those 2 'worlds' be balancing together.

    It's not fun in pvp seeing a ton of 'one shots/instakills'. But that same arrow/attack against a mob doing insane dmg is less of an issue I think? (we don't hear those dragons complaining)

    Super strong leveled arher shoots an arrow at a mob and crits: ton of dmg! why not they worked for it
    Super strong leveled archer shoots an arrow at a player and crits: would be nice if that gonna be a balanced crit not 1 shotting the average player who wants to learn pvp

    Could we not have the math's for hitting Mob and hitting player have different outcome and balance towards that? (no idea, not a programmer. UO did that i remember)
     
  8. Vesper

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    It is like that as of this release
     
  9. FBohler

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    You've hit the nail's head there.

    The lack of an answer to your post is a hard evidence of the truth in it.
     
  10. Vesper

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    If by "Hard Evidence" you mean that Posts like this are an echo chamber for would be's that spend more time complaining about what they don't understand vs learning to play the game then I agree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  11. FBohler

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    Isn't that a git gud argument right there? :D
     
  12. Vesper

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    no, the identification of a logical fallacy with snarky overtones.
     
  13. FBohler

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    His post is still unanswered though. ;)
     
  14. Vesper

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    Yes, posts like this are ignored.
     
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  15. Violet Ronso

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    His post is literally the same thing we already answered, he wants archers to stay OP and for Catnip to buff the rest, why would we need to repeat ourselves eternally : buffing everything makes 90% or more of the game useless as in a matter of hours people can have a build that can solo most things. Being something that the devs did not foresee is a mistake, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

    It's not because no one replies that he is right, just means we don't want to waste our time saying the same things over and over like you guys do
     
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  16. FBohler

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    You have just assumed a bunch of things.

    Didn't address his actual points.

    All I read may be boiled down to:
    "You want the game to be easy, you either don't know how to play properly or you're a despicable min-maxer. Both have no voice in this conversation."

    If you disagree with the statement above, please point it out so I can understand your points more clearly.
     
  17. Violet Ronso

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    No, what my points are is the following :

    1. Balance passes should happen in a game, nerfs and buffs, when things are too far from the norm, which includes currently Fire and Air'chers being in the too strong range, while others being in the too weak range and should be buffed up. I think some classes have a nice middle ground, and by bringing everyone closer to that middle ground we can have a fun game that includes fun even for groups.

    2. Before, the reason to want to be able to solo everything was to obtain artifacts which gave the best gold/hour output. With the recent changes to loot, even very low levels can obtain artifacts, and can feel like they are actually progressing. This means that you no longer need a min-max OP build to enjoy the grind of gathering high level gear, which means it is the PERFECT moment to tone down most of everything, and revitalise lower scenes. Before, people had no reason to go in T4 or lower scenes, now, you have some, you can find a low level elf scene and kill elf mages for a chance at a Ring of Wisdom or Sages Sash (not sure which of the 2 they drop). Quests give artifacts as well, so questing is made better and more rewarding, so once again, you do not need to be able to solo a T10 scene anymore.

    3. Archers have been the rulers of PvP and most PvE for so long, not knowing how difficult it can be for other classes to do what archers do. Everytime a nerf happens to the archers, they are in outrage because they can no longer solo a high tier scene they used to, but if you look at many other builds, most other builds can't even imagine of soloing those scenes, so I think, and have always thought, that archers complain a lot sitting a top of their throne, not seeing the bigger picture. You think that nerfing archers could end up killing the game, but I think that many people can be turned off of the game because they feel like if they want to do the same stuff as others, they need to be archers, and having a game where everyone is an archer gives it an even worse image than a game that tries to balance classes.


    These are my points, this is why I think these endless threads don't necessarily deserve an answer to every single person's post, and that not answering them doesn't necessarily mean that these people are right. Doesn't mean I am either, but having been someone who has tried so many builds, I think I am in a decent position to talk about these issues, and how maybe some people only think about themselves and not the bigger picture...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  18. FBohler

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    I agree with your points, except for 3.

    There are a few archers that solo end game content, the nerfs probably didn't prevent them from doing so, hurting every other regular archer in the process.

    I speak for myself (no idea of you're an archer), I always need help from tamer and stunlock capable party member to try and do eng game content. I use SoA to be able to absorb one or two hits before dying. Far, far away from the wholesome min-maxer that stomps the content, yet receiving nerfs several months in a row.

    Fire mages got the slightest of nerfs, and I don't see @Chris promising any more of it, they will continue to rule the PVE by a long shot if nothing happens.

    I have one main point that you didn't mention:

    1) for many people MMORPGs are all about progression. Getting defeated by enemies and progressing until you can beat them feels awesome. Getting defeated by devs nerfing stuff continuously feels like being stolen. My progression is backwards for some time right now, I fight the "balancing" by changing my play style, which isn't satisfying, it's just like slapping a big Flex Tape on my character each time I get targeted. Just as a reminder, my character have been targeted for months in a row as of now. Not sitting on some kind of throne for sure.
     
  19. Superbitsandbob

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    Either you skim read my post and made up what you thought it said or didn't read it at all.

    I've never played an archer beyond trying it out and so really couldn't care less about how OP or not they are.

    My point was that in the games current state, whether you think it is good or bad, what are these balances achieving? Adding .5 second cast times to fire magic or lowering archery crits by 500-1000 damage or whatever is really having zero positive impact on the game with regards to making the game more attractive and it may just drive some away. If the PvE side of the game was bustling with guilds competing for dragons and loot and the loot was actually worth the time investment, I could see where you would need there to be some balance. Even more so as that would give you parameters to create challenging content around.

    This is a game where there are players that have every skill at a crazy level with silly amounts of gold, some obtained by exploiting that was never rolled back on, and the time used to make these balances is both futile ultimately and a distraction from more robust changes that are needed.

    If an archer is critting for 1k, 5k, 10k or whatever, beyond looking at it and going "I think that is OP and its need nerfing", what impact will it have on the game in its current state?
     
  20. Violet Ronso

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    Fire mages can no longer crit on their main DPS spells (Fireball/Ring of Fire), so that is a massive DPS loss as well, somehow it is ignored, but ohh well.

    As for making the game more attractive, these nerfs hurt the actual players who play these builds, who should know are too strong, while showing everyone else that balance passes do happen and will lessen the gap between builds. It also helps, once again, bring players back to a non godlike state so that more aspects of the game can be experienced and also opens up the possibility of group play being necessary. You guys keep saying these nerfs hurt the lower end players more, but these changes do affect the bigger players, they just know the mechanics enough to know how to get past these nerfs and have builds that were so strong that they don't "feel" the impact as much because they know it was too strong.

    I agree, this sucks, but the thing you need to consider is how strong the higher end players are that make these changes necessary, and how bad it was that these nerfs are required constantly. I spent some time in an event once and saw an archer critting for 3-4.5k damage every few hits, do you know how trivial that person made the event? Do you know how bad it is when most people's dps will average 60-120, and that person's dps was about 1k+?

    These nerfs make it so that content that was not intended to be cleared in 30 seconds doesn't get cleared in 30 seconds, it doesn't make sense. Let me list you some things that these people being this strong ruined for others :

    - Rewarding loot : these people can solo the toughest bosses of the game in in a matter of a few minutes, making these bosses drop more to reward groups means that these people would end up looting so much that your new loot would already be worthless.

    - Challenging content: for most players, mobs reach a point where it seems like you either kite them perfectly or you die from a one shot, why is that? Because these top players make it necessary to create a challenge for them, making these "challenges" no fun for the average player.

    - progression : if these people are already destroying all this content, you can't really make them more powerful, so you can't release new items that would generate yet another power spike, making the majority of players upset that new interesting loot isn't added for them.


    Now to go back on your progression point, once again, the reason to have progression is to be able to reach the end game baddies and get loot from them, but loot has been put in the loot tables of much weaker mobs, making it so you don't need to kill bosses or be extremely lucky to get a nice reward, so sure, your killing capacity was pushed back, but your loot was upgraded tenfold, I think that is a good compromise...
     
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