Classless becoming classed.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mac2, Mar 17, 2018.

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  1. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    About adventurer skills :

    People who were able to use every skill on top of every other were getting an unfair advantage ; as long as they had more time to play the game, they were able to train every skill rather easily as long as it's easier to get every skill to GM, than getting one skill above that in a specialized way.

    I don't think that this game should only be about more play time to get the best conditions in a fight. Before @Chris brought the mastery thing and limits to how some skills could be used, fights were about training and using every buff this game offers, along with the best attack spells (and switch decks and unlocked slots when 10 keys bindings were not enough).

    Specializations and incompatibilities brought a new dimension to the game. Now people must think much more about how to engage their target than before. And personaly, I think it should go beyond that...

    About crafter skills :

    We have serious concerns with crafting (which is frustrating right now) and the total lack of real trade economy in Novia (with people who craft everything as long as they have time for it, and therefore only need to buy from others occasionally, except for raw materials).

    Specializations are a good way to fight both those problems, I think.

    SotA doesn't have to be different in order to be a good game, and it certainly doesn't have to please only the few people who can have everything because they have time for it. It must be enjoyable for everyone, which means that, as a multiplayer game, it must give everyone a chance to enjoy economy, combats, story, etc...

    Also, in a class system, you chose your class when starting the game and you CAN'T train/use any other skills than the ones which are in your skill tree. That's not the case with SotA, which IS classless, and would be classless even with more specializations limits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  2. Bow Vale

    Bow Vale Avatar

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    This explains it much better than my attempt, agree with it all......
     
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  3. Elrond

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    Crafting is a big part of the game , id dare say as important as combat . In the last year i seen lot of balancing , improvements to the combat system, which were need it... but i feel crafting got overlooked, kinda tossed aside . The refining tree was a welcome addition , but bar that nothing much was improved in the actual crafting trees. There are issues with crafting that wont be fixed even with adding specialization. At this point id rather wait and see what they have in mind ..and maybe '' argue'' about it later . I can craft anything in the game , id like to be able to do it in the future , but if specialization can be good for the game then ill welcome this change, even if it will restrict my abilities to only some areas ,so personally ill wait and see what exactly will specialization do.
     
  4. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    if it works the way the adventuring one do, you wouldn't choose specific skills, just specific trees. so an alchemy specialization would cover all of enchanting
     
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  5. Daxxe Diggler

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    You people are saying you want more crafting economy... but to me, that just means I will have to pay someone else way more than an item is worth instead of being able to craft it myself. IMO, that's a bad idea, not a good one.

    If specialization allows any kind of major crafting improvements - but at the same time limits what a person can do in other crafting areas - this creates even more elitism to those who have the time to grind out that specialization. That means those who have the time to do that will be the only ones making the best stuff in a certain category... and thereby they will charge extreme costs to make those items because not everyone can make them now.

    A casual player will still never be able to compete with one of these grinders because they will never be able to make items as well as these other specializers can. How will they be able to sell anything if others are making something much better?

    So, what this will do is make a few people the best and everyone else will remain subpar with no customers because everyone will feel the need to pay extraordinary amounts for something only these elite grinders can achieve.

    Is that really what will make this a better game?

    The only way that crafting specialization can help the economy is if choosing one simply makes a certain crafting tree more efficient or more economical for the crafter. That would in turn allow those people to either make a bigger profit, or sell things at a cheaper rate than others who don't have it. But, if these things allow the grinders to make better items that others can't ever make... it will hurt the economy by causing monopolies.

    I don't know about you all, but I don't have the time to grind enough to keep up with the elite power gamers, so I would much rather not be restricted from making anything for myself.
     
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  6. Last Trinsic Defender

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    The discussion is fruitless. There are old players outside who have all recipes and were lucky to earn enough XP to max all skills. New players won't - by any means - reach that standard. Restrictions and shortage should start with a global skill-wipe at official program-start and same rules for all players. Everything else is a joke and a cause for new players to chose another game ...
     
  7. Kpopgurl

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    I think putting up those limits is the only way to not wipe AND keep people a reasonable chance at becoming viable and competitive fast. People should specialize, else we wont have a true big economy in crafting.
     
  8. Last Trinsic Defender

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    Well I believed in true big economy till the day RL-money got into the play. But that's another story.
    The biggest problem in crafting is the fact that items get less expensive from raw-material to halfe-done to final-stuff. The normal and real way is the other way round. And I'm talking of the npc-vendor-prices because selling to real ppl depends on pure luck (if there is someone who is willing to buy from your vendor, your wares in the town-vendor or whereever he/she may hear of you). And no - I don't start crafting my first items in any craft when I see others come up with +xx already by gaining an unfair advantage. Some got millions of xp by bugs or miscalculations due to development. Nobody can reach that level and that's discouraging. Limits don't change that.
     
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  9. Weins201

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    this will kill crafting , it is a bad idea, specialization was a bad idea, just more Lipstick.

    If any form of imp[lamentation to crafting with Decay or Specials will be the end.

    Crafter will not stand for them being able ot only make Leather or plate. Oh wait if I cook food and garden I wil not be able to make anything, fishing

    how many ways can one say BAP PLAN.
     
  10. Snikorts

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    I feel the same, but at least devs are heading in the right direction.
     
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  11. Kpopgurl

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    I know a lot of people who started late into this game and surpassed others... its possible. Ofc people whove been here from the start have an advantage.. But its not like you cannot close in.
    I imagine more tiers of crafting getting added... and that is where new people are on the same page when obtaining those new rare materials.

    I also expect to have PVP play more of a role. So joining a good guild can secure you mats or access to mats that others might not get so easily. In a sandbox it usually shouldnt matter at what time you start playing.
     
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  12. Weins201

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    Really how so since these "New" resources can only be gotten from top tier critters?

    More of a role in what ?

    sorry no need to respond drifting OT and not really worth it
     
  13. Kain Darkmoor

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    The real issue to me isn't specialization, it's the very steep penalty of raising a skill only to find out it's not what you thought it was going to be. This is especially true when half the tooltips aren't even accurate or complete right now.

    Making choices is great, making the 'wrong' choice or changing your mind with the penalty right now is far far too high for that. I don't know if 100% unlearn should be permanent or not, but the cost to try out new things only to find you don't like it is going to turn a lot of people off.

    100% unlearn needs to stay for another release AT A MINIMUM.
     
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  14. Elrond

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    The elitism is already here ...specialisation or not . You are right about low lvl crafters and high end crafters there is no competition, nor there should be one , high end crafters should need low lvl crafters , and help them by buying their stuff . To fix this problem i suggested an idea , few months ago ,that will help all crafters sell their stuff especially the low lvl ones. That was the addition of runes when salvaging crafted items .
    Salvage a lvl 1 crafted item - get a rune with 1% chance of success when masterworking or enchanting
    Salvage a lvl 5 crafted item - get a rune with 5% chance of success when masterworking or enchanting
    Salvage a lvl 10 crafted item - get a rune with 10% chance of success when masterworking or enchanting
    Can even allow runes to be combined like
    2 x 1% rune result in a 2% rune.
    2 x 5% rune result in a 6% rune
    2 x 10% rune result in a 11% rune.
    Also have them on categories :
    Leather runes , plate runes, chain runes, sword runes so on.


    This will make all gear appealing to crafters if not for the purpose of wearing then for the purpose of runes...no more waste ..low lvl crafters can still help high end crafters ...until they become high end themselves.

    I hope to see more solutions that makes high end crafters more dependent on low lvl crafters ...and i want to see port trending in this direction...its the only way to have a healthy economy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  15. Hornpipe

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    I agree that things like how the recipes got restricted are quite frustrating. I tried to share my recipes multiple times, because I think it was not very fair.

    Now, it doesn't change the simple fact that every new player will always have to deal with older players who played a lot more. That's precisely why I think that this game must find the precarious balance between rewarding playtime and to avoid playing time being far too important, without any wipe.

    The wipe will not solve the problem, because there will always be new players who will have the same claims as you have now. Only a good balance will allow people who spend less time on the game to remain competitive enough with people who will have accumulated many benefits over time.

    Soft caps and specializations are, at the moment, the two best tools that this game got in order to have this balance. And any change that will drive people to use fewer skills concurrently will go in the right direction, because people will simply have to face the learning curves instead of avoiding them like they did until now.

    But that's for the adventurer side of this game. The crafting side is another problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  16. kaeshiva

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    Crafting has the majority of the cash sinks with fuel costs and recipe costs (esp with the horrible "find recipe in bandit's pocket" change), but has no way to make enough profit to sustain itself.
    This is largely due to changes made due to people complaining who didn't think things through.

    The problems with crafting are:
    1. Resource intensive and WASTEFUL
    Both due to breakage %s far too high for 'grandmaster' level and the randomnness having far too many options diluting the pool. It easily takes 100 attempts to make something specific and that's no guarantee. Because of this crafted goods rarely sell for the resources that actually went into making the item. This is made worse by ....

    2. Everything is Disposable
    Even if you do spend 500k gold worth of mats and make that perfect sword, nobody's going to pay 500k for it. Why? Because in a few weeks of intense use, its going to wear out and become junk. The limit to major repair hurts, rather than helps, crafters; you can't price things what they actually cost because people will use cheap, mediocre 'grind' gear instead, which is sensible. Some people whined and complained early on about people being able to repair things forever and it got taken out, and now this is what we're left with. With the rng and wastefulness of crafting, this disposability of gear became unnecessary, as you could always, always be trying for an upgrade, for something better. Now, there's no point in pushing for excellence because its all temporary....which brings me to....

    3. Embracing Mediocrity
    Due to the high costs, randomness, and disposability of crafted gear, most players will just make something 'good enough' . I have +17 and +18 items with decent durability on em that I can't unload for a fraction of the material cost because the RNG screwed me. The 'nice gear' only gets taken out for special occasion and languishes in a box or on a display the rest of the time. We have this complex crafting system that allows customization of material bonuses but then falls over when you get to the enchanting and mw.

    So what does this mean for specialization?

    Honestly, as @Elrond said previously, I'd withold judgement until I see what specialization proposes to actually do, but the reality is that the crafting system needs a serious overhaul before we start going down that road.

    Grandmasters should be making exceptionals 95% of the time, they're a grandmaster, not a blundering novice who is going to mess up basic crap. Grandmasters should not be screwing up first/second mw/enchant, ever. Grandmasters should be able to choose and decide if they want to put "strength" on an item instead of having to make 50 of something to beat the dice rolls. This would allow custom gear to be made to order and maybe you could actually start selling something instead of blowing it up because its useless or giving it away or, filling vendor after vendor with unwanted crap just trying to get something back.

    From there, if we want to add additional perks to specializing, then people can funnel their xp into their preferred area, yeah.

    What I would not want to see is:
    Crafting is broken, and specialization is the "fix" - for your specialized tree only.

    People already specialize quite a bit, putting most of their xp into one or two things. The diminishing returns and difficulty of grinding producer xp have already seen to that. Lets not punish self sufficiency trying to solve a problem that wont be solved until the core crafting mechanics are addressed.
     
  17. Kain Darkmoor

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    So true it hurts. Not to turn this into a crafting thread, but IMO the problem with crafting is simply that gear lasts too long. Once you get the set up you want you basically never need to buy gear again unless you want to try something else out.
     
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  18. kaeshiva

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    We must be playing in very different ways. Even with GM weapon preservation I was shredding weapons every couple weeks. But when I need a replacement, I'm not going to go look through 100 vendors of 'mistakes' and 'junk' that people are trying to offload, I'll make myself a new one. People who can't craft it themselves will just have to accept mediocrity - the really nice stuff never sees the inside of a vendor stall.
     
  19. Snikorts

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    +1
     
  20. Hornpipe

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    It surely depends on what you do and what you use. Wands are almost undestructible as long as you don't use those as bludgeon weapons because spells don't affect their durability.

    As an archer, I can keep my leather armor for a relatively long time, because I don't take much hits. But a melee warrior will have to change his heavy plate much more often.

    People who use free attack won't have to replace their weapon so often, when people who use auto-attack will have to do that every week.

    Durability is quite relative to the situation of the owner, I think.
     
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