Coffee houses, Medieval style

Discussion in 'Archived Topics' started by redfish, Apr 13, 2018.

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  1. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    This thread is dedicated to @Minerva , who runs a coffee house in the game.

    The suggestion of coffee houses has come up before in the forums, and there has always been some debate over whether it would fit into the setting of the game, as it wasn't native to Europe in the Medieval setting, and some of the suggestions involve kobold coffee percolators and such. Forgetting for a moment the fact that we have a bunch of modern items in the game world, I think its good that a lot of the game direction starts off first with traditional sources. Our taverns are modeled after Medieval taverns first, rather than starting with modern inspiration. I think whatever one thinks about "immersion" as an issue, most probably agree that its good to have some thematic direction to the game, from which everything else adapts, because it creates more "flavor" for the game.

    While I think involving kobold tech is an interesting direction, perhaps we should start in a simpler direction: which is that during the Medieval era, coffee houses existed in the Muslim world, and its its in fact through the Ottomans and Arabs that coffee came to the West; first through Eastern European countries like Hungary, etc, which had a lot of Turkish influence.

    In fact, I feel this nicely dovetails in to the kobold technology suggestions, because as I've commented before, for whatever reasons, I can personally imagine kobolds with an Eastern inspired culture in some ways; ie. sitting around and smoking water pipes (hookahs), opium pipes, and even drinking coffee, with a slight clockpunk twist to it. I'm not sure why. I think I just see the fact that kobolds use a lot of things like metal pipes, sit on chairs without backs, and are very social. While there are some Eastern stuff that is delicate and porcelain, there is some which is also metal and brass and seems to fit the kobold style, as does the boldly colored geometric patterns in some Turkish rugs. A link to a post of mine with some clockpunk type pipes, and a post with Turkish rugs, metal goblets, etc., although I believe those are in the Dev+ section.

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    Introduced by two Syrian merchants, Hakim and Shams, in 1555, coffee drinking in Constantinople took off so quickly that by 1566 there were six hundred establishments selling coffee, from splendid coffee houses to the humblest kiosk. The best were located in tree-shaded gardens overlooking the Bosporus, with fountains and plentiful flowers, and provided with divans, hookahs, carpets, women singers hidden behind screens, storytellers, and conspicuously beautiful 'boyes to serve as stales [prostitutes] to procure them customers'. The coffee was brewed in large cauldrons, and might be flavoured with saffron, cardamom, opium, hashish, or ambergris, or combinations thereof. Opium and hash were smoked widely, along with tobacco. As there was no restaurant culture at the time in 'unhospitall Turkie', the coffee house was, other than the reviled tavern, the only place to meet friends outside the home, discuss politics and literature, play backgammon or chess and perhaps gamble. Foreign merchants seeking trade, newly qualified lawyers seeking clients, and provincial politicians seeking advancement would all congregate there. The coffee house was an integral part of the imperial system, providing a forum for the coming together and dissemination of new ideas, just as it was to do later in Europe. On the domestic level, the Sultan and other wealthy householders employed a special official, the kaveghi, to take care of all coffee matters. The Sultan's coffee service (both animate and inanimate) was naturally the most sumptuous: golden pots on golden braziers were held on gold chains by slave girls, one of whom gracefully passed the finest porcelain cup to the Sultan's lips. While the cares of state were thus soothed in the seraglio, wives of lesser mortals could legitimately claim the lack of coffee in the house was grounds for divorce.

    Other cities of the empire did not necessarily emulate the splendid coffee houses of the capital. Those of Cairo quickly attracted a low-life reputation as they were filled with 'dissolute persons and opium eaters', and were used for the procurement of boys. Which is to say that they were in essence very similar to the coffee houses of Constantinople, but less beautiful and the clientèle more conspicuously seedy. Because of their vicious reputation, the knives came out for the Constantinople coffee houses in 1570, with the clerics taking the lead role, spurred on by the fact that the mosques were emptying. The same issues were dusted down: whether coffee was an intoxicant, whether it was charcoal and thus forbidden, and whether the coffee houses were dens of iniquity. As it happened, the coffee houses were prohibited, but merely went underground. In the meantime, street coffee vendors continued to ply their trade. The interplay between secular laws imposed by the Sultan and the religious law of Shariah left scope for intervention by both sides in the coffee debate according to their particular needs at any time. Even when it was classed with wine by decree in 1580, its consumption was so widespread that there was no alternative but for the authorities to turn a blind eye, and eventually religious opposition was countermanded.

    Coffee Houses in the Ottoman Empire

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    Coffee in The Middle Ages: To Drink or Not To Drink?

    Coffee raised controversies in the Christian as well as Muslim lands in medieval times. In 1511, Khair Beg, the governor of Mecca, tried to ban coffee for fear that its influence would foster opposition to his rule. The sultan, however, decided that coffee was sacred and ordered the execution of the governor. When coffee arrived to Western Europe in 1600 with Venetian merchants, the Pope Clement VIII was urged by his advisers to consider the favorite drink of the Ottoman Empire part of the infidel threat. However, the Pope decided to "baptize" it, making it an acceptable Christian beverage.

    Medieval Coffee Shops Go West


    In 1453, coffee drinking was introduced to Constantinople (modern Istanbul) by the Ottomans. The world's first coffee shop, Kiva Han, opened in Constantinople in 1475. Coffee grew very important in Ottoman times to the point it became legal for a woman to divorce her husband if he failed to provide her with her daily quota of coffee.

    In 1645, the first coffeehouse opened in Italy. In 1652, the first coffeehouse opened in England while the first coffeehouse in Paris opened in 1672.

    In the Americas, it was Captain John Smith who was believed to have introduced coffee to North America in 1607. Coffee drinking gained so much popularity that the Boston Tea Party of 1773 made drinking coffee a patriotic duty in America. In 1727, coffee growing reached Brazil, today’s largest coffee producer.”

    The Story of Coffee

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    4.3. Coffee in France

    Antoine Galland, in his 1699 book De l'origine et du progrez du café, accepted the Muslim association with coffee, tea and chocolate. He reported that Monsieur de la Croix, the interpreter of King Louis XIV, had informed him that a certain Mr. Thévenot, who had travelled through the East, brought coffee to Paris. On returning to that city in 1657, Thévenot had used the beans he had brought for his own consumption and had shared coffee with his friends, amongst them Monsieur de la Croix. La Croix confirmed that since then he had continued to drink it buying mainly from Armenian merchants who settled in Paris, and by degrees established its popularity in that city. However the real boost to the spread of the beverage in Paris came after 1669. In that year Paris received Suleiman Agha, the Ambassador of Sultan Muhammed IV, who, with his entourage, brought along a considerable quantity of coffee beans. They not only treated their French and European guests to the coffee drink, but also gifted some beans to the royal court. During his stay (July 1669 to May 1670), the Ambassador firmly established the coffee drinking habit among the Parisians. Two years later, an Armenian named Pafeal, set up the first coffee-house in Paris, but without success. Other Armenians and some Persians tried their luck but without much success either. Finally, some Frenchmen opened spacious and elegant premises ornamented with lustre works, tapestry, glass and beautiful decor, selling coffee, with tea, chocolate, and other refreshments. They attracted from among the Parisians wealthy merchants, people of fashion and men of letters, and soon the number of coffee-houses in Paris alone exceeded three hundred.

    Figure 10: The cappuccino coffee is an Italian coffee drink prepared with espresso, hot milk, and steamed-milk foam. It is said that the cappuccino was invented by mixing Turkish coffee, left in Vienna by the defeated Turkish army, with cream and honey.

    Galland traced the first introduction of coffee into France back to 1644, the year when some Frenchmen from Marseilles, who had accompanied Monsieur de la Haye to Constantinople, brought back with them not only some coffee, but also the proper vessels and apparatus for making and drinking it. In 1671, the first coffee-house was opened in Marseilles in the Exchange District. The coffee-house was a success, becoming crowded particularly by Turkey's merchants and traders to the Levant who found it very convenient for discussing and settling matters relating to commerce. This success encouraged the appearance of other coffee-houses in Marseilles, spreading later through the whole of France.

    4.4. Coffee in the rest of Europe

    After Italy, France and England, the rest of Europe followed suit and embraced this new beverage. In Germany, for example, sources indicate that Leonhard Rauwolf, a German physician and botanist who visited the Levant in 1573, was among the first Europeans to mention coffee in his book published in 1582. Rauwolf noted coffee in Ottoman Aleppo, and he called it chaube; he was closely followed by descriptions from other European travellers. In relation to Vienna, historic sources provide an account related to the military conflicts between Austria and the Ottomans. After the defeat of the Turkish Army besieging Vienna in 1683, it left behind sacks of coffee beans. The European armies defending the city, which included German and Polish armies as well as many other European volunteers, claimed this bounty and took it to their home land. However the first coffee-house to appear in Berlin was dated back to around 1720.

    Figure 11: A Kipferl, the precursor to the croissant, a small wheat twirl-bread with poppy-seed. It is said that the croissant was invented to celebrate the defeat of the Ottoman army in Vienna.

    The Dutch managed to set up large plantations of coffee in their colony of Java in Indonesia. Although it is not known from where they obtained the seeds one can expect it to have been from any part of Muslim southeast Asia, and probably India. From Java, the Dutch directed a successful business, as they became importers and distributors of coffee beans to Europe. It is reported that the spread of coffee planting is attributed to the Dutch. They gave King Louis XIV of France a coffee tree for his Paris Royal Botanical Gardens, the Jardin des Plantes. However, such a suggestion needs to be treated cautiously as King Louis XIV also received gifts of coffee from the Turkish Ambassador, as mentioned above.”

    The Coffee Route from Yemen to London 10th-17th Centuries

    At any rate, I was reading about this, and I went to look up pictures of coffee sets and so on for inspiration. First, a few different Arabic and Turkish coffee sets from that last link --

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    A coffee set from Yemen that has some ornamentation,
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    Turkish coffee set,
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    And grinder,
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    A different style coffee set,
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    16th century coffee set,
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    A silver cup suitable for coffee,
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    Another one for Turkish coffee,
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    Turkish coffee cups with lids,
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    Something more delicate

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    At any rate, you don't need any advanced technology to make coffee; Turkish coffee is made in a special type of pot, and there are different types of coffee presses. (It might also be nice to have samovars)

    But there's always room for a clockpunk coffee maker in the game, too, though it shouldn't be necessary --

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  2. Minerva

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    Wow @redfish That is AWESOME and true. Also, Coffee houses were the news paper started. Coffee houses are so much more than just coffee. They are community and culture. And @Lord British has said it is "Coming" and we know the leader of Virtues would NEVER lie, right?
     
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  3. redfish

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  4. majoria70

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    And one thing that would make it more special is if we could equip a tea cup with our little finger pointed out and a pour tea or coffee and tea emotes are needed too. Make it come alive. we need things to have aliveness. Just staring at a fancy tea set or coffee set is not alive. Ever-Quest 2 had way too much of this. I don't want this for our game. it gets old too fast that way. ;) So just some thoughts.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  5. Minerva

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  6. 2112Starman

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    Coffee should be included in the furture brewing release me thinks, should be a short duration thing.

    Drink coffee (food) and you get +2 speed lol
     
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  7. majoria70

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    yes definitely as well as something to make eating lower tier foods more important or useful in this game in some way. Right now the only reason to have low level food is to raise then very few will use them imo. Being able to eat food from the table would go a long way also to making things more interesting.
     
  8. Baratan

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    I kinda of feel like food needs an overhaul to be more useful. Maybe only allow food to be stored on vendors except for dry foods with regen only bonuses so food has to be made fresh for extra bonuses, but make the duration long enough so that you could stop at the local inn or tavern and eat up and then enjoy those bonuses for a long time before doing it again.
     
  9. majoria70

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    So hopefully our food will be more interactive one day. Starring at deco food and drinks just for looks is not interesting for very long.




    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  10. Baratan

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    So it's kind of off topic but here's my idea. Ignore it if you'd like :p

    Dry Food & Cooked Food

    Dry food is breads, rations, smoked and salted meats. These would give in/out of combat regen and maybe basic stat boosts. Different kinds and tiers. These would last 3 hours.

    Cooked food is stews, soups, meals and the other freshly prepared things that you make. These would override dry food buffs, do what they do plus something special like wolf stew would increase avoidance or whatever. These would last 6 hours.

    So, the difference is that hot food needs to be consumed shortly after its prepared. Players would cook this food right before eating it in towns and better yet these items can be stored on vendors for sale even though players can't normally store or stockpile them.
    To prevent players from using vendors to store them simply make them unretreivable once put up for sale and expire within 7 days. NPC innkeepers would have NPC quality hot food as well.
    Here's the idea, brings traffic into towns. Makes cooking a valuable skill. Makes inns and taverns popular to stop in at.
    You log in and hit the tavern for grub on the way out.
     
  11. Beaumaris

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    The opening post on coffee houses is a way to emphasize this:

    Its not just about the food/drink in game. Town buildings would benefit from more social reasons to visit them too. Food/drink buffs could be designed so that they not just come from eating/drinking in the wild, but also something gained just by visiting a coffee house / brew pub, etc. Similar to hitting up a shrine. Perhaps just lesser buffs to defend the crafting business, with the full buff coming from eating/drinking crafted goods.
     
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  12. Baratan

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    Yes, That was my thought process as well. Maybe have certain foods or drink with "channel" time that benefit from sitting and things like that. Not to penalize other players in a rush, but to encourage using Inns, Taverns, Coffee houses etc.
     
  13. Minerva

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    @redfish I think it is time this was a thing. Maybe @Scottie will get a vision for it.

    I just looked, and the first request was in 2013 and I know @Lord British told me the release Paxlair came in and I opened my coffee house that we would get coffee machine (steam punk Expresso is what I asked for? To be fair, he never said when
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  14. redfish

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    Unless you have trendy new stuff like blonde latte machiattos, I won't go there. J/k :D
     
  15. Swami2

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    Since we have a fez, how about a sheik or Sikh turban, plus of course hookahs, and I personally really want an I Dream of Genie like veiled outfit!
     
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