Combat Design (Would a more focused play-style help?)

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by devourerofmemes, Feb 2, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. devourerofmemes

    devourerofmemes Avatar

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I know some of these suggestions will be quite unpopular, specifically ones like removing auto attack, non reticle mode and draw decks (if you don't buff stacking/combos). However, I think the discussion of this should be constructive and fun. I've been popping in and out of SotA since r16, I recommend the game to fans of the genre and I even have a positive review for it on steam. However, I keep coming back hoping the combat system plays better and I still just find it pretty rough. To be clear I love the classless system and parts of the combat, but I think SotA's combat suffers from a lack of focus, but not just the focus used for skills ;) In my opinion it's trying to cater to too many styles of play and that balancing act is making all of the many play styles suffer. When I say styles I'm specifically talking about reticle vs tab targeting, free attack vs autoattack, draw vs locked. So for constructive fun I'd like to hear peoples preferences if they had to refine the combat to one play style. My preference would be a more action focus, with locked skills and instant deck swap. However I could enjoy a tab target and draw deck focus if stacking and combos really felt more impactful.

    Action Focused Play-style

    1. Increase base movement and strafe speed
    2. Increase double tap dodge animation speed
    3. Reduce the time you need to hold space to reach a max jump.
    4. Add a block function on right click
    5. Remove auto attack from the game and have weapons preform a 3 strike chain on consecutive mouse0 clicks and keep your charge skill attacks on mouse0 hold.
    6. Add pressing mouse0 and mouse1 together causes a parry or interrupt.
    7. Remove locked skills starting on cooldown, but track cd when out of combat, so if you unsheathe it doesn’t refresh a skill that should be on cd.
    8. Allow out of combat regen to happen with weapon unsheathed. (not as annoying if #7 was addressed)
    9. Polish the code for reticle mode, since atm the mouse pops in and out at weird times when navigating menus.
    10. Increase focus regen in combat, buff in combat focus regen from food or make focus potions cheaper to make/buy. (Maybe your focus offhand orbs will help this a good amount)
    11. Remove the focus penalty from deck swapping and make it instantaneous. (if gear is not changed)
    12. Make stacking glyphs legitimately more powerful or just remove stacking and focus on combo creation. Could possibly combo locked skills, but doing so puts both on cd.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
    Fister Magee likes this.
  2. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    6,334
    Likes Received:
    14,098
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Much of what you are asking would move this to a twitch-based, action combat game. While that has its appeal, it is not the game we have been playing for 38 months, and would require a refactor of how the game is coded. Personally, I don't want to go that direction as it does not match my playstyle, although I suppose I could get used to it. I really don't want to get rid of combos, as its one of the cool things we can do with glyphs, but I'd like it if stacking went away in favor of a simple "combo for two of the same glyphs".
     
    devourerofmemes likes this.
  3. devourerofmemes

    devourerofmemes Avatar

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm of the mind that anything combat related that helps focus the last 38 releases into a more specific play-style would be a good thing. Again I'm less considered about the style they pick and more in favor of just picking one and making it solid. Atm it's a hybrid of a lot of features that normally designers make hard decisions on, and in my humble opinion sometimes it's best to make clear decisions rather than trying to offer both at the expense of each. I could completely enjoy a less twitch based style as well. I actually bought the game purely because the combo aspect looked intriguing, so I would love to have it stay. Like you I'm not sold on stacking in it's current form,@Browncoat Jayson if you don't mind could you explain "combo for two of the same glyphs" a bit more. Basically a draw deck, but you can only stack once rather than 5 or do you mean something like I can combined "fire arrow and death ray" and add a locked "Fiery Decay" to my bar?

    My issue with stacking is I'd like stacking 4 to be powerful and maybe increase focus cost slightly rather than just reducing focus cost by 3. However if they do that people that only play locked will be upset at how powerful it is and thus we're back at the issue of trying to please multiple play styles. For the amount of looking at the ui you need to do to stack 4-5, it should be more impactful than 3 focus reduction. You could remove the draw mechanic and focus purely on making locked skills more interesting, for example have locked skills combo but use the cd of both when you do so. Then you could make it more powerful and balance around only locked decks rather than trying to support both weakly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  4. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Hey @devourerofmemes,

    Combos shouldn't be judged only by power, though, but unique effects. The best example of this in the game currently is Juxtapose, and how it can turn a Gust spell into a reverse wind that pulls the target towards you. However, I expect to see a lot of elemental combos that are unique because they can combine two different elements (for instance, earth + air -> sand), plus I hope to see more spells where your melee attack can shape the form of your spell, like Whirling Blades carrying a fire spell or air spell in all directions around you. Right now, there are some combos are useful for their effects -- for example, I use Smoldering Shiv a lot -- but I think we'll see this much more when they get down to it and start putting more combos in the game. What's so great about it is that you should be able to create entirely new spells from components, which adds something interesting to casting magic; plus you don't have to be constantly expanding the skill tree. The devs expanding the number of combos in the game is something I'm really eagerly waiting on.

    I agree with @Browncoat Jayson that this really isn't supposed to be an ARPG. On the other hand, I still agree with some of what you're saying, because the combat does have some action elements in it, and they could work a lot better than they currently do. For example, I really wish combat rolls and strafing would be a stronger part of gameplay. First of all, they don't work at all when your FPS is too low, which completely makes rolls completely useless in a lot of situations for a lot of people. But I've also suggested that Light Armor passive skills like Acrobatics should speed them up and give them better defenses. I also think turning off regen when your sword is unsheathed is a bit arbitrary... and I wish Deck Swapping would work a bit smoother... although I don't think if you're swapping gear it should be instantaneous, I think it should be a bit faster than it is now. And I also like the idea of active blocking and parrying of some kind. On the other hand, I make due without auto-attack in normal gameplay, and don't care that much if its gone, although I don't think there's harm in keeping it in. And I think the tab targeting system should stay for a lot of reasons.

    What I really don't like, though, about the bent of turning it into an ARPG -- which some people seem to want -- is the assumption that the game should be about hours of endless, repetitive grinding. Whether that means grinding resources or grinding combat. So actually, I would go in the opposite direction from an ARPG on some things and make things more like a classical RPG in the Ultima style. For example, I don't care much if food regens Focus faster, but I think there should be a hunger penalty from not eating, maybe start to cap max Focus, and make health regen slow. I think there should be injuries from death -- and maybe some critical attacks -- that would cap your max health and require healing (bandages) to fix. I think first tier spells should be tied to reagents and have a fizzle chance if you don't have them.

    I guess I would say make the action elements work better and more fun, but don't make the whole game about action. Combat should be about strategy and tactics more than twitch, although some reactive elements like dodging, strafing, blocking, deck swapping, forms a part of combat tactics and have to work. Combat should also have objectives and not just be wasting through hundreds of mobs for +XP or +gold.
     
    devourerofmemes likes this.
  5. devourerofmemes

    devourerofmemes Avatar

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    18
    @redfish I'm loving a lot of your points and ideas, I also agree atm that the main perk of combos are the unique effects, sacrifice being one of my favorites. Stacking however is more about making the skill more effective in some way. I only added an ARPG style example for focus since it was easy to show how you'd push that direction with limited code work, since most of those changes I could get done in a day outside of things like block needing an animation. I wasn't trying to insinuate that is a "better" style. I'm just concerned with how the styles seem to fight each other a bit atm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  6. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I too believe that "focus" in design is important. My vote would be to keep the free attack mode and shuffle decks. It's different enough to gain some attention and not too far off that it can't be fixed with some modifications

    While I wouldn't necessarily agree with the suggestions that you're proposing, I'd remove the reticle-based-sticky-targeting system entirely by a simple "if I'm looking at it, I'm targeting it".

    Why would doing any of this suddenly make the game any less of an RPG than it should be?

    Combat should be a thrilling experience and since we're not having this deep turn-based tactical combat, it might as well infuse more action oriented elements.

    Let the RPG aspect be about story motivations and moral choices and less about spreadsheets.

    Whatever the devs decide is more appropriate for the game: they should focus on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
    devourerofmemes likes this.
  7. Filter Bubble Algorithm

    Filter Bubble Algorithm Avatar

    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    261
    Trophy Points:
    28
    4-6 wont be possible the way the game is made, the host of a scene would be overpowered (this issue applies to all games that arent server based and have hosts running instances)
    I like #8 but only if getting hit stops it, considering pvp
    10-11-12 ...no
     
  8. devourerofmemes

    devourerofmemes Avatar

    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Hey Eddy thanks for taking the time to reply. Regarding 4-6 couldn't you just track ping of any non hosting player and slightly delay when you resolve the pvp interaction based on that? I think you could get it close to fair with a few additional back end systems in place. I would definitely want being hit to put you back into combat. Again I made this post more to hear what others would want to focus gameplay mechanics on if they were making an iteration pass on combat themselves.
     
  9. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

    Messages:
    3,790
    Likes Received:
    5,677
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Estgard/ Cologne
    I still playing with my decks and to me the combat System is very good.
    It's one of the best i ever had in a game like this.
     
  10. Filter Bubble Algorithm

    Filter Bubble Algorithm Avatar

    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    261
    Trophy Points:
    28
    the only way to implement what you want for 4-6 would be for parry and blocking buffs style which we have already, not something that needs to be reactionary, plenty of games have reactionary mechanics but they are always server based, first person shooters are the prime example
    concerning the ping tracking style, this has been used in games such as Mortal Kombat online but if you have played it, you would know that it just isnt that great, the guy with the best connection meaning the guy with the money... will be advantaged, and it is soooooooo easily exploited (log in with a horrible ping, get a match and then unclog your connection and destroy your enemy)

    and last but not least, you are talking about some huge overhaul and a lot of proprietary code that needs to be developed if they dont get it from somewhere else, sooooo much more work, trust me, better to stick to what we have and get what you want with the concept that they use already. i like reactionary gameplay, i was a huge fan of the demon souls and dark souls playstyle and played for a long time online, but considering all that goes on in Sota when compared to those games, the amount of data is much smaller in those games, there is only a few moves possible, almost no spells, its much more simplistic, sota has too much glyphs and spells to go in that direction

    the rest of your post has some good ideas though, dont get me wrong
     
    devourerofmemes likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.