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Commision free vendor: possible economy unbalance?

Discussion in 'Release 23 Feedback' started by Phiedrus Oliva, Nov 10, 2015.

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  1. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    They will be able to be traded in-game, I believe.. but the number of them will always remain limited to the # of pledges bought that included them. However, because only a certain amount of goods can ever be assigned to a given vendor, their ability to 'control the economy' will be quite limited. Also, the amount of 'commission' other vendors require can be adjusted to help balance the system if it gets out of hand (from large guilds buying out all the commission-free vendors and trying to corner a market).
     
  2. Ashlynn [Pax]

    Ashlynn [Pax] Avatar

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    This is true. However the people who own the commission free vendors are also the ones who will be able to claim the best placed NPC lots come launch day should they want to make the most of their vendor. =P
     
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  3. Coolwaters

    Coolwaters Avatar

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    It's not complicated. Frankly, had I done better research and understood that backer rewards included non-cosmetic items not even available in the game by way of ... playing it ... I wouldn't have preordered the game at all. If anything remotely smelling of P2W (like this does) remains at release my guild won't play either. I think this is a common feeling among "old school" (i.e. UO) gamers.
     
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  4. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Yeah the issue with saying "change a pledge reward so its more fair for people that don't have one" is that it was already offered, advertised and purchased. People (including myself) bought additional accounts specifically for that item. It would be akin to saying "you know what? lets make all deeds rent free, screw it.".
     
  5. Coolwaters

    Coolwaters Avatar

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    A few thoughts in response. First, I'd hope the player base is mature and objective enough to see through that "argument." This isn't a binary issue. The "normal" players who didn't purchase expensive backer reward packages don't have to have a significantly inferior corollary item in order for the pledge reward to have great value. The item should be expensive, but available through play.

    The take home is that the Kantian "they" can play with their toys alone, relatively speaking, or they can create a rational world that many thousands of players will be motivated to participate in.

    You are essentially describing a legal concept called detrimental reliance / promissory estoppel. I'd need to look at the pledge offer, but so long as it didn't use really short-sighted and restrictive language like: "no other players will be able to earn or buy even a similar vendor, ever! You are truly a special snowflake!" ... then the devs can do whatever they want to balance the game. It doesn't make your commission-free vendor less of a reward if other players can earn or buy one as well. It just keeps you from having a sort of oblique monopoly.

    So, what, exactly, was the offer language?

    I'd assume that no matter what it is the devs could differentiate an in-game vendor to have a very small commission (like 1%) or none at all, at the right price. It's not a binary thing. The devs can absolutely create a rational in-game vendor that is truly competitive with that particular pledge reward.

    To the extent the devs actually intended to give pledge rewards that are substantially more potent than a corollary organically acquired item - through playing the game - then I guess you "win." But your world will be awfully lonely, awfully fast.
     
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  6. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    Have to agree... I prefer to lose a few pledge rewards than lose an entire group of potential players/backers...

    But then again... maybe you can beat down a vendor into submission and put a slave collar on it ? :/
     
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  7. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    We asked for clarification before buying them. So no cake for you *crosses arms*
     
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  8. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    I'm all for fairness... and I've always said I prefer to play with a few people that are quality players than being the next big hit...

    but how many in portalarium do you think agree with me ?

    You also aren't exactly known for your diplomacy... governor, lord, sir ? how should we address you ?
     
  9. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    Well, right now, the wording is "A special, commission-free vendor!"
    And it's given to every benefactor with a citizen level pledge or higher.

    I believe it has been clarified that all non-pledge vendors will have a commission fee. But as has been stated in the past, other vendors could have other variables, like a very low fee, and or more space to hold various goods for sale.

    There will be many ways to make other vendor options more attractive to provide 'balance'. Perhaps an expensive in-game variety will be able to 'call out' to customers to come to them, with options of what they should say, including products and prices.. etc.

    Backers were never told that their vendors would be the hands-down best vendors in the game. Only that they were 'special' (read - unique), and 'commission-free'. Future pledge cycles for future episodes will no doubt open up more opportunities to get commission-free vendors as well.
     
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  10. Coolwaters

    Coolwaters Avatar

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    That makes a lot of sense to me. And it also seems reasonable from what I believe is a practical new / potential player viewpoint. I mean, I've bought the game. I'm invested. But my guildmates would probably enjoy the game too and I expect I'll push them to play it. But I know them and if they even get a whiff of any P2W element, they're out. That would be a bad rep to collect with the SB / DF / CF crowd.
     
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  11. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Most trading will be done avatar to avatar anyway,i wanted the vendors for micro transactions but turns out they are not great for that since you can't buy a portion from a stack and they hold limited stacks.
    Try my name, how should i address you? sneezed while typing?
     
  12. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    Ha ! Exactly !

    And what came out of my nose ? :p SIEGE PERILOUS !

    I'm not kidding, you got it EXACTLY right. Xorinia would be happy with your shrewdness :) You make me wanna dance hahaha
     
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  13. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    I'd have to look it up (or replay the game) but I believe that 'Ahuaeynjgkxs' is the name the Xorinia wisp gives you to call it when you speak with them in Ultima VI, VII and Underworld I&II. It's a difficult character to RP, so I think it's commendable. check out The Codex if you want to understand a bit of where he's coming from. :D but you'd really have to talk to them in game to get a true idea..
    Example: They don't live through time like we do, they just exist in all time, and they have more of a hive mind, like the borg? interesting creatures to run into, and I hope we get to talk with them in SotA!
     
  14. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Ok well thats pretty sweet and i withdraw my sneezing comment heh.
     
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  15. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    Seriously though ..if the question was "should these have ever been a reward?" then much like the prosperity tools, i would say no. But devaluing things that seduced people out of their money is not a good idea if you want people to trust you for a second, third, fourth round of crowdfunding.
     
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  16. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    Your knowledge of the land shall be impressive Miracle Dragon :)

    Yes, they are like the borg, but even stranger... Their temporal hubs are amongst the strangest places I have ever visited, its kind of old school, they seem to like to take on human form and they have quite the attitude.

    I guess a proper star trek parallel would be the Q, but an order of magnitude less "evolved"... (please don't tell them I said that)

    The name was given to me, it means exactly : merry little ball of original mucous (read big bang sneeze particle), they really do refer to all humans as such but since I was the first to be able to understand their language they told me I could keep it and they would start to acknowledge our diversity by inventing new ones.

    Funny enough, they said it wouldn't be hard considering the frivolous nature of their language :p
     
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  17. Bluefire

    Bluefire Avatar

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    This is not a cheaply acquired reward item ($550 or more) and I truly doubt this is up for debate at Portalarium.

    I agree, thoroughly that this will create a benefit to people who have the vendors and will cause a 10% margin reduction for competitors. This was the entire intent of offering it as a pledge reward. There are several players who have purchased at this pledge level. However, out of the entire population of all the people that will ever play SOTA it is a rather small percentage. Like in any economy the holders of these vendors would then have to always be providing the product to keep the market low - that is not going to happen in the long term and I doubt many people are going to place things on their vendors at a near-cost price to begin with. Most people will want to mark up at least 40% over their investment and time. I sincerely doubt this is going to destroy the rest of the free market that is paying the 10% mark-up.

    I have seen this in practice in other games with public vendors with a fee versus private vendors that cost a tiny bit of maintenance to operate per month (essentially free). The public vendors never lost their appeal of convenience and people not willing to put skills into being a merchant would just sell it on the public vendor minus the fee. There were even centralized searches across the game universe for instant price comparison and yet the market didn't crash and items sold based on supply and demand rather than vendor fees. Without a centralized advertising terminal where everyone can list their competing prices it will be difficult to have a universal economy to begin with.

    Finally I do not agree with the current public vendor solution that one should get a pittance of their fee back and the item is forever deleted. I would imagine that will not be the case once we are in live. The item should simply kick to a "pick me up" status and another week should go by before it is sold to the NPCs for 50% what they value it at and that should go to our bank account.
     
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  18. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    Of course macroing and bots being allowed will have a much greater impact on the market...
     
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  19. Ice Queen

    Ice Queen Avatar

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    Aye, I don't usually go out of my way for deals unless it's real money. In games I usually buy where it's convenient, in an npc city, or near where I go hunting; especially if there's no way to travel about like recalling. Ultima Online was an exception as we could recall anywhere in the world. Even if someone was out in the middle of nowhere, if I had their rune in my book I went there and could be a loyal customer. Since there's going to be no fast travel in Sota, there's no reason for me to waste time roaming about for deals when I could go somewhere close to where I am hunting or traveling and grab supplies, even if the prices are higher.
     
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  20. Coolwaters

    Coolwaters Avatar

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    No need for that question. The correct question is "what exactly were you "promised?""

    And Mrs. Dragon quoted that already verbatim in this very thread. Nothing in that "promise" requires that your special toy be in any way better or more powerful than corollary items available in the game acquired by ... playing.

    The constant chirps to the contrary really just make the backers look as if they care less about the game than having a P2W advantage, frankly.

    And the idea that (even if it were true) that single item cost someone a lot of money (you said $550 USD), which I doubt to be the case - is that all you got for $550?, it's a poor commentary on the P2W status of this backer community.
     
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