Community Driven Game Longevity

This thread got me thinking. I typically try to avoid posting really long replies but I find this a good topic, I couldn't resist – wall of text incoming!

Over the years I've noticed a pattern during my gaming career. I'm sticking with games for much shorter durations now than when I started out years ago. I have always preferred to play just one MMORPG at a time, that has not really changed but I used to last a year or two per game. Now I'm lucky if I make it 3 months after launch (granted, I usually Alpha/Beta test, but I'm not counting that here).

I've noticed that it's not just me following this trend – when I started playing online MMORPG's, I had a couple dozen real life friends that often played the same game I did, we had guilds together in game and some of us worked for the same company, we had gaming marathons during the weekend, and when we were on break at work all we could talk about was what we were going to do in game after work!

My friends typically used to stick around for 6 months or more in the same game. Now it seems I can't keep a guild of real life friends together for more than a few months, much less convince them to play the game in the first place – “life is happening”, they'd say. That is, a life without, or with less, MMORPG's.

The newer generation of games seem to cater us by giving constant rewards, immediate gratification, and we're typically hand-held from beginning to end. We've gone from huge raids, group dependance, and relying on other players in game for everything, to playing an online single player game simultaneously with others without having to rely on anyone else or facing consequences beyond a minimal penalty such as “running back from the graveyard”, and going through a near endless chain of meaningless-though-sometimes witty/humorous quests just to get to end game, get geared up and complete daily tasks.

It used to be that when I was out adventuring or traveling across a map/zone and someone stopped as they were passing by, it was because they were going to buff me with some beneficial spells, or ask me if I wanted to group up and help them, or to engage me in a game related conversation. Nowadays in current MMORPG's, when a player stops right in front of me, I expect little more than to be trolled or ridiculed for something, challenged to a duel, asked for “gold”, or asked how they can get some awesome thing that I have that they don't have yet.

When people invite me to group or raid, they immediately ask if I have voice chat. When I start to explain why I abhor voice chat unless I'm raiding or PVP'ing, they might just walk away or kick me from group, or worse.

I realize we all might have different expectations from a game and of the players in said game, and I'm not one to fault someone for playing a game how they enjoy to play it. But I've really not enjoyed the in game communities lately as much as I used to a decade ago. And I'm not sure but I think it has less to do with the new generation of gamers and more to do with how the games are designed and what roles and reasons and consequences players are given to interact with each other in-game, for example.

Ravicus, when you said “one big generic cartoon skype chatroom”, I immediately identified with that. I too, want this game to be more than that. And personally, while I've never been big on roleplay outside of casual moments here or there, I am very big on my gaming communities! I want to be a part of something, I want to have something to offer, I want to feel useful or that my services are wanted, and that the actions of myself and others are noticed and that there are consequences for our actions.

I love helping new folks learn the game, help them through a few levels for free (not power level) and watch them, offer any advice I might have and answer any questions I have answers to. I still do that sometimes but it's often not needed or even wanted because all the guess work is taken out of a game and everyone is spoon fed or led by the hand. The quicker you get to end game the less time you'll waste doing meaningless stuff acquiring meaningless things while leveling up – that's often what runs through my mind lately playing some of today's MMORPG's.

I remember in Everquest (I'm talking about the earlier days when mercenaries didn't exist), you were dependent upon your guild mates, you depended on everyone in your raid to know their roles and know how to play their class well in any situation. We had heal rotations and five 'tanks' because the first three tanks will probably die before we “get the kill!” There weren't anywhere near as many trolls, jerks, and spammers because if you were the type of person who didn't get along with people very well, you didn't get invited to groups and guilds, and if you didn't get invited to groups and guilds, you struggled and you didn't make it anywhere fast!

I'm not sure exactly what the solution is but I think we're all off to a good start with the passionate community here. I'd love to be part of the “New Guild” that helps other players and newbies, though I don't see how that could be effectively implemented in SotA at this time?

I've thought about starting a new guild in SotA but I haven't yet. So, I'm certainly interested in hearing any way that I might be able to help and get involved, at least that which doesn't include me buying someone a “Lord/Lady of the Manor” pledge.

(edited for grammar)

 

All I have to say, after reading your post here is: WoW, thank you for this reply. I agree whole heartedly. Thank you for posting this and reaffirming that there are those of us out there that have similar game views. I really really really like your post. At work now so cant type to much

 

First of all, thank you for the invitation, Ravicus. After reading through your 'wall-of-text' and other's replies, I can only say this post is very valuable and huge amount of ideas in it.

I'm a casual gamer. Usually I play PC game about 4~5 hours a week, less if some events occurs.
I've rarely been to any raid in WoW, never experienced endgame contents in LOTRO(although I did it max level once), played 10~20hours of Startrek online and played few others to name.
As described in one of Ravicus' post link, MMORPG's longevity is affected by user created contents and its atmosphere that can lure abandoned people back to the game itself. LOTRO did a pretty good job regarding that part, or at least I thought.
Among those games I'd played, Startrek online's UCC has shown most promises. It has a user created quest vault(A.K.A. Foundry) that players make storyline based on game's main plot, and other players play it, rate it and if it's good enough devs put that story into official canon. How cool is that?
Even now, user created stories are present is the forum and still growing. Since New Britannia is vast world with full of life, and devs mentioned there'll only be part 1 ~ 5 of the game, why shouldn't users cultivate and continue its story?
Wouldn't it ensure longevity of this game which many people hope for?

The reason why I reveal myself as a casual gamer is, because I want SotA to take not only hardcore gamers who played quite a few hours daily basis, but also casual gamers like me, who drops by from time to time and enjoy the scenary, play a couple of quests for a couple hours a week, into consideration.
Being a casual gamer doesnt' always mean 'fast pace loving, easy reward craving dude'. At least not here I think.
We're investors, and my reason to invest in SotA is because I want to play it as long as possible.

Devs did it in UO, and I'm pretty sure they can do that again.

 

Thank you for your contribution!

 

Great thread!

Longevity for a loner who doesn't like community.. in most MMO's, this player type prefers to create several characters themselves, (each with a different role to play) thereby creating their own in-game family of sorts.

In SotA, where you play one role, but have many, many options to choose between as you develop your character, I feel that what could help longevity for this player type would be to have many different NPC 'partners' all over the world to discover, each with their own unique identity and skill set. So you can make in-game friends, and grow to understand the roles and skills in the game that you didn't choose for your own character, just by playing alongside these various different partners.

Given that each one showcases a role or skill set that your character could have, it keeps you interested as a player to continuously say 'what if i decide to develop in that direction instead?'

In the offline version of the game, these partners would naturally become party members in a huge group you could gather to your cause, but in the online version, hopefully we can take on one at a time as we discover them, and choose between them as we get to know them, complete quests for/with them, and befriend them.

I'm not discounting this thread's talk about community, in fact, getting people accustomed to characters in the game that are similar to other players might help people to naturally cross that line toward playing with others.

In my mind, the more NPCs we have that act and do things we'd expect other players to act and do, the more cohesive the game world will feel. So show me NPC bandits who run around looting corpses I killed (or when I died), show me NPC hunter/gatherers inside random hexes who are competing with me for the same resources. Give me the opportunity to confront them, talk to them, make deals with them, or steal from them or kill them. Show me NPC strangers in Ardoris, visiting from neighboring cities, shopping at the same shops I'm shopping at, and using the bank. To make some of this possible, I suppose we'd need NPC's with schedules that give them the ability/illusion of traveling through different zones over time.. but yes, I think this will be something worth developing.

When the line between player and Non-player gets fuzzy, the game becomes something more, and we begin to live in it. That's my two cents in having a game with real longevity.

 

Great idea! Combining all ideas with this one could actually satisfy diversed types of players!

Nice! I only hope that devs would see this and take into consideration somehow..(that's the most important part really)

 

I really like your analogy. I can appreciate the vision you promote. I think you are suggesting that you would in the community sense treat everyone else like an npc and that would promote a new and lively change to the world. I really like this point of view. Thank you for sharing.

 

All I have to say is, the community makes or breaks a game, but you have to be open to all sorts. Welcoming roleplayers is great, but it should never feel forced and someone should never feel left out simply because they don't want to role play. The same can be said for those who partake in PVP, PVE, crafting, etc.

The only behavior that should never be tolerated is griefing. Communities that live to grief should be discouraged. A classic example of this is the GoonSwarm Federation in EVE Online, who have announced many times that their sole purpose in playing EVE is to ruin the game for people who are not fellow Goons.

 

I don't think having fun in game has nearly as much to do with longevity as players and developers think and therefore focus on. The thing about producing "fun" for developers is that it is finite and expensive, but in the end we don't need state of the art graphics, voiced NPC's, an interactive world, endless supply of new and exciting quests... in respect to longevity. All that stuff is great and gets people started, but it doesn't keep people playing for 20 years because it is impossible for a developer to keep pace. All we need for longevity are two basic concepts:

1.) Always have essentially unreachable goals for players. For instance, in the old UO you could make a spellbook called a Scrapper's. What made it interesting was that it gave you random properties when you made it (at least in ABCUO). The thing about that is, there is always a better book that could possible be made, and considering it could take you a week of gameplay for a single attempt, you could be busy for awhile.

2.) Give players the desire to obtain the unobtainable. To me this is where the since of community comes in. You have to have other players (friends and enemies) to show off your new Scrapper's spellbook to.

Take Farmville for example. It is an extremely simple and cheap game to produce, yet it drew people in for years. How? Obviously not because it was fun! It was actually a chore! But it had the two elements which are required for longetivity and that is all they needed to be successful.

 

The main reason I jump from MMO, or Game to the next:

The Game did not provide a ongoing challenge that motivated me, or it had an ending.

The Game received patches trying to lure in more mainstream, destroying the uniqueness of the game.
- (Thats why i left UO)

- A new Game showed up promising to be more "hardcore" for me - thats why i left Everquest to play DAOC.

The Main Characters i played got nerved to being useless and the expansions did split up the player base to much , and no more motivation to level up for RvR again - ( i left DAOC )

- because of patches following again after casual mainstream players complaining of how hard a game is i left STAR WARS GALAXY ONLINE.
Because of community crying now everyone could become JEDI, compared to it being a secret and only for hardcore players.
But moreover i lost my House with Rares demotivating me complete.

MMO started all to be "babysit, unchallenging, copy paste"
LOTRO, WOW, ELDER SCOLLS.
All to easy, to mainstream.



Warhammer Online - Balancing Problems like hell because of only 2 Factions. - was not the next DAOC i did hope it would become.

---------------------------------------

Currently found my new home watching SOTA getting developed, and happy "Survival Games & MoBA Games" deliver the challenge i am missing.

I do not run after communities. If a game is good they are a natural out come.
.

My biggest concern for my personal gaming style in regards to the out come of SotA:

Challenge coming to short.
Scared of nothing motivating after main story
Game becoming to conservative






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I can agree with this. One thing that I have noticed is that many people are in a hurry. I think if a person played the game (I am not referring to you here, just a general statement) and played it through game mechanics, not relying on outside information, they would find the game more immersive. The devs work long and hard creating content that is easily undone or bypassed by spoiler information out there. Once one person finishes something, they post it and its easily repeated if some one wants to race to the endgame. In the case of sota really there is no endgame though, at least I don't believe. Its a double edged sword and i don't want to downplay anyone's playstyle. Its kind of the "keep up with the Jones's kind of scenario. People that are competitive do not want to be left behind. I feel though that they are sacrificing the game and the content that would prolong the game longevity by doing this. Once you race to the end, and have not got any sense of self gratification other than getting to the end game, people move on to rinse and repeat in another game. I myself did not pledge the money I did to just copy what some one did off of a website and repeat everyone else s paths. It just is not my playstyle. But if people are looking for content and immersion, its here, just don't spoil it by taking the easy way out all the time.

 

You speak out of my heart.

Would i want a Community to make a tour for me through the game? A community telling me all the secrets of crafting? A community telling me the best Combat tricks and such?

No thank you. It is nice for casual players.
But i do not need a community to babysit me and ruin the fun of finding out myself

It is wonderful they want to help and it is great for the ones who want that help.

But ask yourself before you get help if you maybe destroy fun without knowing.

So maybe i end up playing Solo Online. Strange, not me. But after the story i might go full online.

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I totally understand, I have the same feelings.

 

Greetings,

My opinion on why games consistently change subscribers in what seems to be a revolving door player base is extensive.
Because of this, I have split it into several sections and categorized them below.​

​

People need a reason beyond a means to an end
If the goal is only reaching end game, that is all there will be to the game. You very commonly see this problem in MMORPGs, people end up being upset because they have to level and end up hating the content quote "until the game starts" a max level. This can be alleviated by making the integral processes of the game happen during the leveling process, instead of after. Although, that is nearly impossible.

What I see happening, on the positive side, is that this game is focusing more on being a crafter/collector's paradise. Raiding/arenas/PvP requires max level to be balanced. Crafting and collecting doesn't, which means they can have a positive allure that persists throughout the gaming experience. Starting immediately, ending never.

Content must not be profit focused, this causes fractures in the community
If content is focused on providing a stream of unique game play, from various angles, it will ultimately be healthy for the productivity of this game. Having a different path that a crafter vs an adventuerer will follow. I made a post about content that could be added to the world map that would be random encounters for crafters. This is what I am talking about.

I have more to add, but I will do that later. If you have any comments on anything i've said, feel free to quote me and ask away.

 

Thank you for your perspective. It indeed has merit.

 

I'm new (since 6 days ago) and I've been playing and reading the forums a ton since I pledged. I just now came into this sub-forum and found this thread. And it is the best thread I've seen so far and I literally like'd every post in it.

Not sure I can add much but to say it is better to focus on how to bring new players in and make sure they have fun their first outing than try to figure out how to make people want to stay or come back after leaving (in my opinion). A couple of thoughts:

1) A way to avoid griefing (I heavily share Rasmenar's perspective laid out above) - if the devs aren't going to actively address it, then they need to give the community a way to address it - people who get off on causing strife need to know they will have better success at it "somewhere else" (I've seen several things already that make me believe Portalarium shares this perspective which is very encouraging)

2) A way for an established player to bring in a real-life friend and play some good old co-op that is meaningful; I'm not saying all new players need this and as for me, I love to jump into a multiplayer game knowing nothing about it and learn as I go but many (most?) people are not like that; SotA has all the tools for this already, I know I could talk friends into joining me and they would have fun *with* me while learning the ropes, not just standing there in my party while I kill stuff and I wouldn't have to create a new Avatar to handhold their new Avatar while my existing Avatar goes unplayed

And lastly I loved the reply above by Mad Max and that spurred me to throw in my 2 cents: I'm starting to think devs giving the community a way to actually generate structured content is an excellent idea that, if done right, would give everyone who plays tons of reasons to love the game and stay a very long time.

 

Awesome, and thank you for taking the time to reply. I agree with both your points and I believe that the Devs do have our best interests at heart also. We have a while to go before actual launch but now is the time to do the dirtwork on building foundations. Again, thanks for the bump as I feel this thread is very important. *cheers*

 

Right, I agree with you. There has been talk on how to handle these situations on other threads, and it gets kind of heated at times. But in the end, we should be able to take actions to stop people from griefing.

 

This is a very valuable post because few either have the time or the notion to post such feedback. It's easy to forget about the casual gamers out there because they've been forced to either play call of duty online or nothing at all. I have left several games simply because i could not keep up with the games demands due to real life, and in the end It was more like ' screw it' I'm just not going to play any more. I forget the name of the game but it was fantansy based mmorpg in which i chose the most difficult class to use, the cleric, it was also the most sought after companion as it was the only one that could heal and ressurrect, I had no shortage of friends and fun to be had as a result but in the end I couldn't keep leveled up with everyone else, even despite there pleas to help level me up quicker I stopped playing, why? because all i got to do when i logged in was catch up to everyone else, and not even with any sense of real accomplishment on my own part.

 

If there's a reason why EVE Online is still very alive and kicking major ass after thirteen years from the beta, no server split (I'm looking at you, UO), full player driven economy, two major failures and half (Incarna, WoD and Dust), and it's one of the paragons of MMORPG longevity (exactly as Ravicus asked for in this thread) then this is it.

The possibility for a huge, organized, focused and extremely passionate entity to CREATE CONTENT well beyond what devs could ever have time to build, with the unbelievably vast and amazingly complex array of user tools the game gives to everyone - but not everyone is equally good at using. You call it griefing, I call it the very spinal cord of a truly player-driven universe. Further, Goons have been banned left and right for griefing. And mind you, they're not the only ones dedicated enough to the task of (try and) showing everyone who's the boss.

From PL, to EVE University, from Chribba, to the flocks of TEST and BRAVE, from all the winners of AT's, to the undeadedness of russian blocks (who simply don't want to die and reincarnate better than any lich!), the trick is always the same: giving tools to everyone to both build and kick sand castles.

This is my eighth year in EVE, never missed a month (with two accts), been at three Fanfests and already planning the fourth next year, bought an ungodly amount of shirts, art books, toy models, swag, collector editions, misc junk from touch sensitive gloves to thermoshifting mugs. I've been in CFC twice, and fought them ever since (I was in the huge 4070 players battle of 6VDT-H, where we lost our capital system to grrr Goons!), and even if at present they're my sworn enemies ingame, I will always, always recognize them the role of premiere content makers. And one of the major contributors to the replayability value of CCP space opera.

If anything, I dearly hope that SotA designers will find the time to provide similar tools to our enablers and instigators. How awesome (and good for the longevity) would be if POTs were given a way to implement mini games, races, tournaments with supporting game mechanics in some specifically designated "event lots" of their scenes? Naval battles, horseback jousting, draw-with-ankhs art fairies, fishing competitions, you name it! And if may keep dreaming, territory conquests, town- and guild-wars, player created quests, shardfall raining (where a group of player must survive increasingly difficult mob waves till some seriously badass end boss), dynamic events all over the map, setting up of NPC caravans which help players with trades, but must be escorted by large parties while they roll in dangerous areas, eventually ambushable by other players...

As long as we have the tools, we can reach for the sky. That's what I learned on EVE. That's exactly what makes or breaks the longevity of a game.