Conversation with Chris on skills

this is the most wierd and unrealistic-feeling combat system in a MMO Ive ever seen...
cards? wtf?
are there even gonna be abilities you can use any time without waiting for them to pop up?

 

First of all, it lead to actually having ROLES.

If everyone is a warrior-mage-smith-carpenter with archery, then there is no need to interact with people, because you can do everything yourself. Gate yourself around, repair your armour, your bow, etc.

 

Why couldn't a mage cast THROUGH a sword?

 

TemplarAssassin, Good to see you around!

"Wherever we've been, always sounds familiar to us and whenever we're going someplace new it's strange to us"
Cards, the new frontier adding chance & Being able to be anything more than one thing and doing away with multi-characters...
That just about sums it up on how I access those things...

I happen to like them because I want a new game, but I'm also pondering how to improve them or add any good thoughts to them....and find those things I don't like in them... but it's been a proses for me to think "New" when my brain wants comfortable and failure, but also something new....
Maybe it's struggle of my own duality?...
~Time Lord~

 

from a earlier post: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-combat.4094/

So you can get a few locked skills but drawback is you can't use it with combo's.
Wonder how many good combo's we will find

 

They mentioned that armor and weapons would cause hindrance to magic, so they can use it but fizzling might increase for example. I'm extremely curious about this system. I made a point to build unique builds in UO customized to the use of the character so the idea of having no skill cap is very interesting and helps make dynamic tactics with only 1 character. I liked to town fight and made a warrior that couldn't be beat in town except occasionally by a tamer with a trained nightmare and Dragon (Swords, Tactics, Anatomy, Resist, Healing, Magery, Poisoning, Detect Hidden with my own mix). If you can customize your own deck with certain skills/abilities/spells you have then I don't think it will be a big deal, if there is a random feature to it then that could be difficult. Blink, for instance, will be useful on demand and if it is random it might not be as effective.

 

Reminds me of the NeverWinterNights (NWN) system. If your magic was charisma based (wizards,sorcerers, bards) then the heavier the armor the greater the chances of your spell fizzling. The most I'd put on my character was hardened leather ( 10% arcane failure) & in a melee fight - which always seems to happen - he'd don a small shield ( 5% arcane failure) for a total of 15%. Once you went beyond 20% , arcane magic wasn't worth using.

With clerics , paladins & rangers though - armor wasn't a problem since their spells were wisdom based. So you could have an Elenium type paladin casting spells and tromping around in the heaviest armor you can find.

 

I for one support armor interfering with the magic-based skills to some degree, otherwise there would be no benefit to not being a caster in full plate. Archeage has a nice system of set bonuses innate to all armor types, with 7 possible pieces you get up to 4 different bonuses for same type of armor.

For those that like to where the heavy, I would like to see the ability to slot certain spells as passives adding effects to weapons and armor. These would be slightly reduced in effect from the cast version of the spell, but have no chance of failure.

 

Good'ole D&D arcane spell failure based on armor type.

 

I think that armor and weapons affecting magic makes sense to a lot of players as far as immersion goes.

I'm interested in how the combat system as described is going to be tied into the immersion of the game. If it has to do with players thinking out their moves and stacking decks then that could make sense. But randomly generating spells for no other reason then a dev though this would be a new type of combat system doesn't compute. We'll need to try it, but I don't see how it is built into the game. You'll be looking at the bar seeing what you were dealt more than looking at your enemy. It almost sounds like magic and abilities are meant to supplement combat and their attempt at balancing is Magic the Gathering. If they made it dynamic and determined by your character's stats, like you just got hit so you can't focus enough to cast the powerful spell Flame Strike, that might make sense (again, not as described). Worrisome. I don't see how this fits with the immersive themes throughout this game.

 

My understanding is that you do stack the deck to a degree. First you can set abilities as Noble and staples that just do not benefit from combos. Second, you can purchase active skills more than once to increase their frequency. Third, the deck will not contain all your know skills, just the ones you put in. You will be able to swap out decks to suit situations. Lastly, you can buy/increase passives to change how the deck re-acts in terms of duration of displayed skills and speed of new deals.

 

We're spending a good deal of time discussing our definitions of player classes, but we're talking about a classless game. Not saying this isn't productive, let's just view it in the proper light.

As I understand it, the purpose of such a system is precisely to allow for these variations of how each player feels a character should be played.

• You think a mage should only wear clothing, no armor and wear a pointy hat? Cool, do it!

• You think a mage can swing a sword and wear a helmet, but no metal? Awesome, do it!

• You want to wear what you damn well please and will fireball anyone who says otherwise? Good luck, do it!

The issue here then is to allow for all these different play styles to exist. So IMHO, as much as resources permit, the game should provide sensible restrictions disadvantages based on character activity, but no moratoriums. If you create a character class that is super successful, you can start a school and try to make that the standard definition of 'mage' or whatever. I look forward to seeing all the different specs characters create.

We should be pushing for the most pluralistic system possible when it comes to character abilities and play style. WAVE OF THE FUTURE

 

Agreed, though in my mind the term "restrictions" would have been replaced with say "disadvantages" or perhaps "disincentives".

But yes, totally understand where you are going with that.

 

Just because it is a classless system, doesn't mean there isn't anything to balance. Having mages in full armor and halberds without meaningful penalties means its UO's fighter-mages all over again. There is no reason for lighter armor or other weapon types.

So yes, you can choose to wear your plate and shield, and shoot fireballs from your sword (ugh), but you should incur penalties for doing so. Slugs for the extra armor, and casting penalty for not having a free hand (in my ideal, the extra second or so to sheathe/cast/unsheathe).

Combos allow an easy way to get around the casting penalty; combine your fireball with your thrust attack, and your halberd bursts into flame. If we go with the suggestion to remove autoattack and make slugs do standard attacks, then a simple fireball+slug would do the same thing.

 

I personally don't want to get hung up on traditional "looks" or archetypes of characters ... as long as the mechanics in the background support the in game "logic" / combat system ...

I just want the animation to be smooth appealing and "consistent" with your equipped weapons

If that means that the spells shoot out of the sigil - or a conduit is utilized so be it - or you always have one hand free to cast (the spell shoots off the off hand)

- Everyone criticizing this game will not say hey look at that ruleset - they take into account if you have a free hand to cast ...

they will however criticizes the hell out of the game if your hands become rocks / every time you casts an earth spell while your were holding a sword - (as I've said before the animations are great - but it looks weird - just take a look at all the Avatar combat pics)

 

No, actually this has been my point, but I'm coming at it from another angle.

Like you said, there should be sensible restrictions -- but more over, its exactly those restrictions that create depth to character development, since the restrictions require the players to be creative and adapt to find ways to make different skillsets work together.

Lets say there weren't any restrictions on the way magic was used at all... and for the sake of argument, lets make that absolute.. no effect from armor, no effect from low intelligence... then there becomes no reason not to use magic, and every character essentially becomes a bland magic-fighter hybrid that isn't the least bit interesting. Its the restrictions that allow for characters to be more than boring, and allows for the schools of practice that you're talking about.

Lets make 'play styles' actually mean something creative and interesting.

 

The issue with mages wearing armor has more to do with balance than with the idea of a classed character system. People want magic to be powerful, which makes sense because, well, it's magic, but there has to be some tradeoff for that power, just like there are strengths and weaknesses of every other combat skill. If magic is too powerful, though, you will get a classed character system, even if it's technically open, because most players aren't willing to give up advantages for their characters to role play. Then you get people who want to do other things but feel like they can't because magic is just so much better. It's the classic MMO flavor of the month syndrome, only potentially more permanent. Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, and I'm pretty confident ideas to address this issue are in the pipeline (if not already planned). I'm looking forward to see the how the skill balancing dynamic will work. (I still think maces will be OP.)

 

Of course, they could make magic available to everyone and just nerf it so it isn't that powerful, but the game would be less interesting. And once you suppose the idea that magic is powerful, restrictions are about balance from a game perspective -- but they're also a bit common sense from a world building perspective. ie, If magic was so easy, everyone would do it.

 

I mentioned in a different thread that my ideal game would make magic rare and powerful. I agree with you and would even like to see magic be restricted to people born with it (unlock a second character slot by accomplishing an unknown and randomly generated goal in the game, like SWG did once upon a time). That's not a very marketable approach, though. Just my two cents.

 

In my mind, this returns the topic back to the original conversation regarding skill points.

If one maintains a single skill point pool for both combat and magic, then a player needs to choose between placing their points into magic or placing it into weapon skills.

One cannot be all powerful in both simultaneously (at least not without some excessive amount of time expended in game) since both sigils feed off the same experience pool.

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As to those who commented : "Why should my magic skill increase while using a sword?"

Well : Though it will increase, it won't increase very fast, because you are expending your points in skill you are not actually using in combat. If you are purchasing magic with your experience, then perhaps using magic in combat would be a better use of your game time.