Could use some advice on melee

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Ysold, Feb 27, 2021.

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  1. Ysold

    Ysold Avatar

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    My melee character isn't making much progress at the moment. She's normally hunting tier 5 zones that don't have large groups of stronger mobs, because she really gets into trouble when she's attacked by more than 3-4 mobs at a time, especially mixed groups. So I really could use some advice on how to progress.
    She started out as a bludgeon-user with some fire magic and leather armour. She ran into the same problems, so I took up polearms instead and trained poisoning. She's still in leather armour and I invested heavily in dodge, evasion etc. This doesn't help much with archers, though, and really big mobs like reapers are out of reach too. Her main skills are all GM+.
    I really would like to keep the leather armour, So is there another way to complement her skills so she can move forward? More Fire magic would be one way, but will it work? Or an Earth elemental to tank? Or go the Mesmerize way? Or go with Shields?
    Any advice is welcome!

    Ysold.
     
  2. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Hm. Better players that myself would have to chime in. But in my experience, trying to go face-to-face with several/tougher mobs in light armor has gone poorly for me. I play an archer, so I'm usually trying not to get up in a mob's face, which helps. Unlike other games where the main difference in armor types is primarily visual/class related, light armor in this game is designed more around the concept of helping you to avoid getting hit in the first place, rather than to mitigate incoming damage. I'm sure there are people who tank in leather and cloth, though, but usually they aren't relying on armor for protection. I use Shield of Air, which works really well with other ranged combat abilities. Possibly loading up on earth magic; I believe earth skills pair really well with bludgeon.

    I feel for you. I found myself in the same place before I began training my air magic up. While it would be easy to just abandon leather for steel plate, Cora has always been a light armor archer in every game where such a thing exists. However, if it's purely an aesthetic choice, the ability now exists to apply any type of pattern to any type of crafted armor. You could switch up for heavy, and apply leather patterns. But, I suspect you are like me, and play a leather wearing character because that's the character you want to play. Plus, let's face it- we just look more stylish than those ghastly metal monstrosities.
     
  3. vulcanjedi

    vulcanjedi Bug Hunter

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    My chain armor is so mismatched I put rusty patterns on all of it :)
     
  4. Barugon

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    I can't offer too much help here but I suspect that if your going to get up close to melee enemies then heavy armor is probably the best. Earth magic seems to compliment heavy armor as well.
     
  5. Anpu

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  6. Adam Crow

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    @Ysold what are your two spec? Are you using bandit armor? Are you stacking or charging your stance and your main defensive skills like evasion, dodge, and fortify defense? Do you use potions and the skill that raises potion power (sorry forgot the name).

    There are tons of little things that you can do that really make a big difference when you use them all together. Especially using a nice combination of food, 3 day buffs, attunement buffs and devotionals.
     
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  7. Tirrag

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    Shields are also a big help especially with the update to bolster. Your DPS goes down due to using a single-handed weap, but survivability will go up. 100% behind Adam Crow in that a good defense requires wise use of skills together and a deck built to utilize them well. As my SotA mentor taught me, first learn how to survive then add in the DPS.

    In addition to skills, how you fight makes a significant difference too. Like not exposing your backside, utilizing terrain/environment, and target prioritization. Also bard skills have some great support skills such as stagnation and mesmerize that will allow you to handle a larger amount of mobs.
     
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  8. Ysold

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    Thanks all for your replies! Really useful tips there, especially about using the environment more than I do now. And I'll work towards Air Shield.
    My plan for this character was a kind of Ninja-style of playing, So that's where the leather armour comes from. I want to go for Sneak attacks in time, but first I'll need a source of exp. I chose Light Armour specialization, with Dodge, Evasion and Flurry at 95+ now., and high Dex. She's using Supple Leather with bronze and fustian cloth, twice masterworked and twice enchanted, with Dex, Health, Damage resist modifiers (if I could get them). She uses Dex and Str potions and food with Dex and health regeneration. She doesn't use stances (I ran out of slots), but might sacrifice the not-very-useful-anyway Heal -slot. She has some Fire and Night attunement, but I haven't given attunements and blessings much attention yet. I guess that has to change!

    I'm very glad she switched to polearms, and I'm learning to use Push and Pull in an effective way, because I feel those are really useful. Stacking and Combo's are beyond my own agility, I''m afraid, so I"ll have to do without them.

    Again, thanks to all of you!
    Ysold.

    Edit: alas, Air shield seems only to be useful if you have a ton of Focus or for run away emergencies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  9. FBohler

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    For better survivability I would suggest:
    - Earth or Air Shield;
    - Water elemental (it heals you when set to defensive);
    - Eat 6 points of food (especially the ones with HP bonus);
    - Drink potions of Deftness, Might and Acumen;
    - Drink potions of Regeneration and Imbued Regeneration;
    - Use Tactics tree defensive skills with the light armor ones;
    - Use 3-day blessings: Avoidance and Agility, Greater;
    - Use HP and Dodge Devotional Shrines.

    (All of those potions last for 1 hour and are very cheap do obtain)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
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  10. Ysold

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    I think I should give some feedback about the progress of my melee character. Perhaps that will be useful to other players too.
    She has been making progress, especially through working with the terrain more. And for the rest: Dexterity, dexterity and more dexterity. I found that Dexterity really has the most impact. It is quite hard to raise dexterity, but I locked all skills except Train Dexterity, Air's Embrace and Moon Eater and Moon Worship (and Dodge, just one more level to GM...). Even then progress is still slow. I found that the best way to raise Train Dexterity was to use Dodge, Evasion and Flurry as often as I could. Fighting lots of mobs helps, but not as much as using the Light Armour skills.
    I hadn't realized that Moon Worship raises Dex too at night, so I was very happy to discover that. Note to self: Always read the small print when chosing which skills to use!
    Dex without potions and food is now over 100, and a bit more at night, and I already feel a marked difference.
    Training those skills takes a lot of Exp, so she also gathers a lot to increase her Adventure experience pool through meticulous bonusses.
    She put Air Shield on hold for now, but it's still on her todo-list. Also on the todo-list is raising Moon attunement.

    Thanks again for your input!
    Ysold.
     
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  11. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    not at night, when the moon is up. not the same thing!
     
  12. Violet Ronso

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    Hey @Ysold ! Sorry I missed this thread the first time around, but I'll provide my personal input concerning melee combat!

    First off, Crowd control. Hard CC is your best friend being melee, stuns and knockdowns/trips are very important, as they result in a 100% damage mitigation during the duration. Bludgeon weapons have the most of these, followed up by Heavy Armor (Body slam). If you would rather use light armor, bludgeon would be your best friend at this point, but it seems you have already focused on polearms, which leads into the next thing,

    Using the right stat depending on your weapons. all 3 melee schools I would recommend using Strength as a first stat, first off because it is the main source of consistent damage, but also Health, which you will need being melee. If you are polearms, you can do very well using both dex and strength, especially if you are dual wielding, because the Strength modifier is lower, where a 2 handed maul will benefit the most from as much strength as possible, so in your case, using light armor, focus on 1 handed weapons.

    Next, your defensive buffs, do not underestimate parry, and make sure you cast dodge immediately before a big attack (fireballs, boss hits, etc). When fighting multiple ranged targets, a shield will be your best friend if you are too easy to pick off.

    And one more thing, use the Bard songs! These songs are very strong, and even at 50% power without an instrument (when that change will go in), it can help a ton, Melody of Mending as well as Savage Sonata are 2 must haves in melee combat. If you can dynamically stack them (which should be your preferred option if you are dual wielding and using offhand attack, which is strongest when used dynamically as well), you will be able to get a lot of power, my MoM heals me for 76 health per tick, which is usually enough for most fights.

    For a stealth approach, many of the buff you will use won't be castable before you sneak, I.e. Shield of Air cancels stealth, so you will need to play around that. Learn to use distract correctly, and you will be able to pick off targets one by one with an easy sneak attack. And one last tip for stealth, Chaotic clone allows you to lose mobs attention sometimes, allowing you to go back into stealth for a new sneak attack, use this to your advantage when you can!
     
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  13. Tirrag

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    wonderful advice @Violet Ronso :)

    100% agree. i have also added Atonal Aria to all my melee decks. it takes a long time to sing, but the amount of constant area damage it does is well worth it. if i am fighting a single target i usually body slam and then sing atonal while they are stunned. also in large crowd situations mez melody can be a huge help in that it will control the crowd and allow you to focus on one mob at a time. if you use mez keep in mind that any area or multitarget attacks will break mez on the attacked targets. stagnation can also be of assistance too if you find the sing speed of mez is just too long to suit your needs.

    i would love to see a couple of controlled encounters of yours wearing light armor run through my combat analyzer and show the defensive mitigation numbers here. one without using defensive measures and one with. its neat and encouraging for folks to see proof-positive of the skills working :)

    i use body slam a lot for not only timely stuns, but also to close the gap quickly. if not heavy but you are using a shield then you can use Charge and if no shield then Engage Opponent.

    so much good info here. i love the sharing of knowledge that is occuring :)
     
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  14. Violet Ronso

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    Yes, this is one of its best uses, but with Heavy Armor Specialisation and the Body slam stun length duration, a 6 stacked Body slam can result in around 22 seconds of stun, and this has often been my biggest source of CC (often perma stunning bosses like the mechanical dragon of Krul or others). The gap closing is fun, but for me it has mostly been a secondary thing.

    This could be a neat idea! Could be a recommended idea for Bjorn @Dyonisys Stream!

    I feel like this is always super important, especially for a game like Shroud! One thing that I learned from someone by talking about dynamic decks is that the best way (and fastest, and believe me you will notice a speed difference) to stack is to have your slot with all the different glyphs on the right of the ones used for stacking. This means that, as an example, if you are stacking 3 glyphs, you need 4 dedicated slots, lets use my usual stacked glyphs :

    deck goes from 1-0, with me using 7-8-9-0 as dynamic slots :

    7 is for Melody of mending only
    8 is for Savage Sonata only
    9 if for Atonial Aria only
    0 is for all 3 glyphs

    The deck system fills up the slots from left to right, so if I draw a MoM, it will check in 7 if there is a slot, otherwise in 0, if both are full, a bit of time is lost, and then a new glyph is drawn. This usually means that my very first glyph is always going in its stack slot, and then in the "Draw Slot", allowing me to always be able to stack the glyph drawn in my 0 slot.

    Difficult to see why it changes anything, but lets do in the other way around :

    7 is for all 3 glyphs
    8 is for Melody of mending only
    9 is for Savage Sonata only
    0 if for Atonial Aria only

    Once again, the deck system fills up the slots from left to right, so if I draw MoM, it will check in 7 and place it there, but if a glyph is already in 7 then it will look in 8. If I draw MoM once, and then don't draw it for 12 glyphs in a row, it is impossible for me to stack the other 2 songs, because the 7 slot is already taken up by the 1 MoM glyph, so when I draw Savage sonata once, it will go in 9, but then will have nowhere to go. This slows down my draw speed, but also stops me from being able to stack efficiently.

    (Thanks Grumpy for this tip btw).

    So there ya go, another helpful tip from mine for those who didnt know, I learned this last year!
     
  15. Dyonisys

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  16. Ysold

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    Lovely advice all! I think I'll put some bard skills on another character and she will be my major slayer, and I'm still trying to find another way to play my polearm-light armour-sneaky-character.

    But I'm still working on the basics, and there are things I don't get! I've been looking at my damage stats. Now, my halberd has 12-36 damage. My polearms skill is at 120, so should give +73,2% damage. But when I look at a series of normal hits on a single target, I see hits of 12-16-14-11-14-18-19-12- etc. etc. Now how is that possible? Hits on a target dummy are like 18-14-21-19-15-20-20-18-14 etc. etc. so a bit better. But it seems like my +73% base damage is completely ignored. Or is that only counted in if I choose Polearm specialization?

    Critical hits on normal attacks are better: 33-42- 69-35-62-59, 27 etc. But: I have been stacking Dex a lot and have about +25% critical damage on my gear. So that's pretty disappointing after all.
    Of course, criticals on special attacks are great: 103-275 but they are rare, despite my Dex and about +27% critical chance on my gear.

    Next: my defense. Yes, I'm still in leather armour :) If I analyze my fight with some Swashbucklers, I see they hit me 21 times and I only had 1 "glancing damage due to armour" (I guess that's from Evasion). And this was while I had Evasion, Dodge and Parry (freshly) up and I have Light Armour specialization. Again, I don't get it. Didn't I Dodge at all? And no Parry? Yes, I know I'm better off in metal armour :) but I still believe my build should be viable.

    Ysold,
     
  17. Violet Ronso

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    Damage numbers go through a bunch of formulas, many things impact the actual damage in the end, and those numbers you see on the weapon are just a starting point for these formulas. Making sense of all these numbers is near impossible, I never actually managed a real formula, because of all these factors. One thing to note, auto attacks are always going to be weak, the are mostly a damage filler, a sort of Damage Over Time while you are using your abilities.

    As for the defenses, it would be easier to see your combat log to actually see what happened, but this mostly depends on what you are fighting. Depending on their dexterity, the have a higher chance to hit. Basically, Parry, Dodge, and all other sources of damage reduction (except for resistance) is applied a "weight", or basically a part of the dice roll is allocated to these, so if your dice rolls were unlucky as heck, it is possible that in 21 hits you did not manage to dodge or parry, is unlikely, but still possible!

    Also, yes, your build should be viable, I know that Arkah EMPstrike plays a mostly stealthy build, if you can get a hold of him, maybe he can give you tips and tricks!
     
  18. FBohler

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    Wow, that sounds very OP.
     
  19. necronut

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    You must not've met the giant wall of CC resist.
     
  20. Violet Ronso

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    I've seen Air magic as well as bludgeon users do the same thing, it's not a heavy armor specific thing.
     
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